The point of sales space around WooCommerce is growing. Recent releases from both WooCommerce and GoDaddy add to the existing options out there.
In this conversation of the Roundtable, Ronald, Robbie and Robert tackle POS and how it is playing out in the ecosystem. The chat takes many directions in the form of payments, online vs offline and everything between.
Highlights of the point of sales chat
- The challenges of combining online and offline sales [01:40]
- Asking too much of WooCommerce to manage it all [04:50]
- Mixing systems up and the issues of usability and experience for store owners [09:27]
- Extending your sales beyond the online and offline experience [13:16]
- The large businesses returning back into POS [15:30]
- The race with point of sales options [18:55]
- Trust and confidence in the systems [25:03]
- Checks and cash are nearly obsolete for some [28:00]
- Builders giving clients advice on the various payment types [31:06]
Ronald: Welcome everybody, to another episode of Do the Woo, it's episode 165, and it's time for the Woo round table. And with me, I've got two great panelists, Robert Jacobi and Robbie Adair. Hello to you both.
Robert: Hey Ronald.
Robbie: Hello, Ronald. How are you doing today?
Ronald: Good, great. So this week, at this time, I want to talk about something that I've been thinking about a lot. We've had several lockdowns, some businesses had to close their physical brick-and-mortar store and had to resort on online sales. But now that I feel that many other countries, are also going back to physical sales, into a store, they have a online presence probably doing better than even their own store.
And the question to me is, how do they combine it? How can they keep both active and running a smooth operation. At the same time in recent weeks, I've also seen news from WooCommerce, but also GoDaddy, who've sort of entered the market with POS and handheld devices to take contact less payments. So, putting that all together, I think this is just a great topic to discuss of what businesses need to be aware of. And more importantly, for builders, developers to advise their clients and say, actually, these are the tools out there on the market, but these are the limitations.
The challenges of combining online and offline sales [01:40]
So let me kick it off with a first question. So combining online and offline sales, what are the challenges? Robert, what can you sort of come up with?
Robert: The main challenge I feel is, the accounting aspect of it. How do you deal with reconciling your books, all the bookkeeping, all of the taxations, all that stuff for lack of a better word is really in my mind, the first stumbling block, like how can we make sure that if we're getting payments from two different systems, hopefully will get into a very fun discussion about having a single system for all of it. But, a lot of people who quickly jumped into e-commerce, over the last year and a half, probably did it with a system that has nothing to do with their actual physical infrastructure. So making sure that, that can be reconciled and put in order is critical.
And, even beyond the accounting is, all of a sudden, what about the inventory aspects of that? If I'm ordering something online, some pickup at the store option, I got to make sure that I have that in the store. And if that's not connected, again, to backend systems that manage it, even if you're a small shop, just making sure, that someone shows up because your automated e-commerce system said, great, you can go ahead and pick up that, wheel of cheese and you show up at the cheese store. Is it actually there? So those are my least off the bat, big concerns about mixing bricks and clicks,
Ronald: Accounting and stock management, yeah.
Robbie: I agree with Robert too, especially on the accounting side of things, whether you're in two systems or even in one system, you still want to accounting wise, you want to see where those sales came from. And, so I think that's going to be key, especially when you do integrate into one system, it's going to be key. And, as well as the inventory aspect was the other thing that I was thinking about as well, just because, if they had a different system before pandemic and they had their inventory in that, and then they were like, all of a sudden had to shut down and switch over to this online. And they moved their inventory in there. Now, first of all, they've got to reconcile back into their old system and then they've got to figure out going forward. How am I going to keep these in sync if I'm going to maintain my online, as well as my physical?
So, you need to make sure that if somebody shows up, they can get whatever they want and that it doesn't say that they can get whatever they want. I think, the more key thing is if you don't sync those systems, you're going to have very unhappy customers. And, that just hurts sales all the way around. And so I think that's going to be one of the first things that people that are using two different systems are going to have to solve, whenever they go back into the physical world of sales too.
Asking too much of WooCommerce to manage it all [04:50]
Ronald: Are we asking too much from WooCommerce? Because, essentially we building up a website. It's a WordPress website and we are adding an e-commerce capability to it. Then we are adding a store, POS, and also, accounting, stock management. Are we asking too much from WooCommerce to manage all of that? Do we have to resort to SaaS and Cloud Based Solutions, in order to manage all that?
Robert: No, we can do this all on WooCommerce. I don't understand why not? There's plenty of customization that can be done, plenty of off the shelf plugins that will take care of 90% of that work. So I don't feel like that is a stumbling block. Now, at a certain scale, you're going to want to make sure, are you able to get the reports in need? Are you able to migrate the information across different platforms? Are you going to build that out the hard way, or are you going to rely on plugins and SaaS providers that can take care of a lot of that heavy lifting and it really boils down to how do you want to control all of that super, super busy online. You'll probably take advantage of a lot of these platforms, but you'll also probably take a lot of advantage of really customizing internally.
So you always have a least control of your data. That's always the one concern I have, is you can start small, just get things going, keep moving, start satisfying, but then how do we bring that all back in to make sure that we have full situational awareness around what's going on with our online and offline sales. There is no issue with using WooCommerce for soup to nuts around this. It's just sometimes you'll have to maybe take advantage of third party services to augment that while you figure out you're scaling.
I agree. And, I look at this kind of, if you're talking to your clients, two ways you have to look at it. One, first of all, did they have a physical Point of Sales system and accounting, an inventory before pandemic. And then they went online. So in other words, did they have something before they went online and now are they trying to figure out how to integrate those together? That's to me is one discussion and it may mean that Woo is not the answer for them to push everything into. It may mean that Woo, it just needs to communicate properly with those going forward. Now, yeah, you had all your physical people who had to go online, but you also had a ton of people who just started with online during the pandemic, because maybe they were planning on open up something. Maybe they just developed their product and they were ready to go. And so they started in the online Woo world.
And if that's what your client has done, I think going forward and going into physical world from this, is going to be much more simpler for them to try and figure out the way to stay in one single system. It depends on the size too of the client. I feel like whether Woo can handle it all internal as one system or not. And the reason I say that is because the larger the client, the more likely that they're going to have some sort of inventory system that needs to be held internally inside of a VPN, let's say things like that.
So you're going to have to use APIs to be talking back and forth between those systems. So, can WooCommerce do it all? Possibly, but if you already have a system in place, or maybe you need a system that works with other systems inside of a manufacturing facility, let's say, then it may mean you just have to do communication between those and Woo, is not your 100% answer. It's your online answer that talks to your physical?
Ronald: Yeah. So in a nutshell, it's how you build up your store to start up with and also the scale of things. That's a really good example, because a lot of people have started small businesses from their living room or kitchen, and now maybe want to venture out into farmer's markets to sell their cheeses and then to have a POS or handheld device that connects straight to your WooCommerce store that re consults the accounts. Fantastic. It's all out there, but of course the bigger stores that need to combine various systems and integrated with APIs, that becomes a bit more complex.
Mixing systems up and the issues of usability and experience for store owners [09:27]
Robert, also you mentioned there are so many different tools. There are probably at least five, six, very decent POS plugins that are available for your WooCommerce store. And, if you don't add other systems to it, do you think that mixing and matching could expose some issues for usability and experience for store owners? And then also want to ask you a bit more about the scale and how important hosting is to make it all run smoothly.
Robert: Boy, that's a lot of questions all at once.
Ronald: I know you're lucky challenge for that.
Robert: I like the challenge. A lot of this goes down to basic WooCommerce. How are you actually implementing your store? And how is it already connected to your physical presence? So I'm going to keep with that sort of mixed idea in mind. The challenge for the end user is, what's the muscle memory around their existing POS? Whether they've started out in bricks or they started out with clicks. Because, you don't want to put too much friction into that process. You don't want to say that we're going to use YITH's POS at the front of the store, but then at the back, on the other side of the store using QuickBooks payments. Things will start getting confusing. And if you have multiple people doing multiple things, going back and forth, and you want to avoid those kinds of errors, because, you want to avoid counting in inventory issues and you know that's the trick.
So the less that there's sort of that muscle memory to one system, then there's certainly more flexibility. If there is a single system, a single system is already in place, that's been there for a while, you're going to want to try to leverage that or just force everyone to a new single system so that they're not going back and forth between places. As an end user, as an admin developer, I like single systems that handle as much of that as possible, because then there's more control over access permissions, where everything's going, the reporting, how it's being done, the actual accounting. And we haven't even touched on making sure the payments actually get to your bank so that you can actually pay yourself at the end of the day. So trying to avoid a complete plethora of systems is a good idea. And you might pay more for a single system, but the amount of peace of mind, hopefully security and just reduction in I'm doing all that busy work is definitely worth it.
Ronald: It's also the strength of course, open source WordPress. You can integrate so many different systems, but at the same time it can also become a weakness because, it can be a jumble of all sorts of systems that try to talk to each other and therefore have the potential to crumble at some point, but having good expert advice and testing everything and backups of course is always are really important.
Robert: And that's where your hosting provider comes in. At Cloudways, we have backups all the time. We have performance, so you want to look for that in whatever hosting provider you have. And you make a great point about making sure you have that level of backups and redundancy. One of the nice things that we're able to do at our end at Cloudways is having access to multiple types of cloud providers to be able to scale and provide redundancy.
Extending your sales beyond the online and offline experience [13:16]
Ronald: There's another thing that I've mentioned before is the additional opportunity, because now you have online sales and you have offline sales and you can create loyalty programs. You can sell online gift cards and use them offline, or when you visit a store, other loyalty points and so on. And Robert, you mentioned in a message CRM, email marketing, and those are the systems which we haven't mentioned, but, those are really good examples of how you can extend your sales well beyond the online and offline experience.
Robert: Well, if you have a good bricks business, don't forget about how you can take advantage of that and, in the click space, so you collect those emails whether it's through a loyalty program and there are a number of WooCommerce loyalty plugins out there as well already, and leverage both sides, because, as much as I may like getting out of the house and actually going to a store for the first time in two years, I live in Chicago, so there're going to be snowy days coming up and I'm not going to want to leave the house, but I want to take advantage of the fact that I have a relationship with that store and be able to do it online.
Ronald: Yeah. It's a great way to empower small businesses and not make them dependent on huge systems for which they pay a big commission.
Robert: Oh, and I was going to say, having that kind of online presence probably reduces your actual headcount that you need as well because, during the pandemic a 100% of shopping was online. Now you got your store back open up, but do you really need to have 10 people in the store now since half the staff, and not that I'm encouraging, laying off folks, but I mean, it's just at some point you have to look at, can you actually afford to keep a staff of 10 around? Can you transition one or two people to manage the e-commerce side? And now you're avoiding those costs and still got to pay rent on the store.
The large businesses returning back into POS [15:30]
Robbie: We are talking a lot here about small businesses and how they're going to do it. But, I think that we also have to look at the really large businesses to see how they're starting to go back into Point of Sale. And it is very contactless. In other words, I don't know if you've flown United lately, but you cannot whip out your credit card and buy one of your snack packs or a drink anymore. You have to have already registered your card in the United app and they charge you through that. It's totally contactless. You go to a Starbucks, you can order it in your app. They bang a code, you know you're done. You go to McDonald's same thing. So, we're seeing a lot more contactless. I'm not having to have that physical device for them to swipe.
And I think we're going to see that, that is going to cascade down. Right now, if I'm going to go sell my cheese at the market, I need something they can swipe right? But do I always, and am I going to have to always, or am I going to be able to just like show a QR code and let them bing it with their phone or vice versa to make payment so that it is truly contactless. And when you say contactless one, we've come out of a pandemic and so contactless is very important, but I think even going forward, contactless is important for security purposes, more than anything. No one is seeing my credit card number, I'm saying no one can make a photocopy of it or take a photo with their phone of my credit card number with it's date and code on it.
And so it becomes much more secure when you go to the contactless payments. And so I think we're going to see this cascade all the way down. Even if I'm paying my neighbor, right? How do I pay back somebody, Venmo? I'm not handing him a credit card to swipe anymore. And I think we're going to see this become very, very prevalent over the next five years.
BobWP: Hey BobWP here. II'd like to take a moment to thank two of our pod friends for their support.
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And now back to the show.
The race with point of sales options [18:55]
Ronald: Do you think it's going to be a race of the strongest? PayPal, they have a similar sort of thing where you can pay with QR code. There's a customer of ours. They use the POS and QR code. So they'd have a showroom, people used to scan the QR code and then use the POS to check out, they wait for coffee and then all the shopping would be delivered or ready-made for them. There are lots of different innovative ways to use QR codes and not necessarily like a POS or a handheld device to pull out your credit card or tap it.
I think that's a really nice example, Robbie. My question is the race of the offline payments. With Woo announcing a new partnership of the handheld devices just launched in the US. And I think the UK, Europe is coming out soon. GoDaddy, has also announced one quite recently. Do you think it's a fair, how can I best phrase it? The pitfalls of coming out with different systems now, is is there a right timing or is it already too late? Do you think we are ready for some new innovation and credit cards, even that is something of the past, just your general thoughts on that, Robbie.
Robbie: Is it too late? Probably not. Because what I'm talking about does require the buyer to have some level of technology and not everyone has that, right? We know that, it could be demographic reasons whatever, but they don't have that capability. You remember that thing called cash. They may want to whip out some cash and have you check them out there, but they may also just say all I have is card. And so you're still going to need that capability for most people, you're going to need that capability. And, I don't think they're too late. I do think though, that technology that they're coming out with, I bet you anything that, that technology is already set up. They know all they have to do is upgrades and firmware and some software on that for it to present a QR code versus need to swipe a card.
And so I'm imagining that if they're coming out with technology, now, they're thinking they've got a future proof for this, right? And so future proofing means, I've got to be able to up update that physical hardware to work in a different way, or I need that hardware to be just as basic hardware as it can be to work with a software device, in an iPad or an iPhone or a computer or whatever. And so that I can update it and control it going forward. So, I don't think anybody's too late coming into this. I forgot what the metrics are and Robert would be better at this because, he's all about those metrics of how much e-commerce is growing these days, but it's astronomical. I mean, e-learning is growing and e-commerce is just like passing it around the track five times. And so e-commerce is only going to grow. When I say, e-commerce, I'm representing that as also the Point of Sale systems that tie into that e-commerce.
Ronald: Yeah, Robert?
Robert: I absolutely love that. Robbie brought up the United contactless payment system. It's completely invisible. They know where you're sitting. If you order something in coach, they're just going to punch your seat number in and you're done. And, that is a brilliant new way. And I would've actually never thought of United as leading in sort of that kind of payment process, but it's great. It works like a charm.
Robbie: I'll swap seats with you next time, Robert, and I'm going to order a whole lot of things on your seat number.
And really it's never too late to even just incrementally change the payment landscape. I think the first credit cards as we know them, didn't really start popping up into what the 1950s, 1960s?. So we're talking half a century ago plus, but what does Apple do, in the last, what five years they create Apple Card.
And, that is a completely different experience to using a credit card. Dynamic credit card numbers if you want, hidden emails, completely digital experience. There is no paper statement that you get, it's all handled digitally. You still get a credit card and it can work for, when we think of credit card swiping and whatnot purchases, tapping, swiping all that kind of good stuff. But it's an insanely more pleasant experience to owning a credit card than all the old school stuff. So, it's never too late to even just incrementally make some cool stuff happen, I guess is what I'm saying.
Ronald: So, you don't need a lot of technology for that because WooCommerce, does drive a lot of that. I'm also thinking of really simple transactions of booking a rowing boat on the river with your family. There usually is a QR code that takes you to a website, to a booking page, you pay there, you show them the reference number and off you go. You don't need cash anymore. You don't necessarily need a POS either. And even if you pay a deposit, it can be refund within minutes because then you can just press a couple of buttons. There are some really innovative ways that don't need a lot of big technology, but newcomers does still play a really big essential part in that. I think some of these examples really get me quite excited about the future of payments and the airline example, it's fantastic.
Trust and confidence in the systems [25:03]
Robert: The big thing will be the trust and confidence that people have in these systems at the end of the day. So, if I'm going to my local cheese monger and they rolled their own payment gateway, that's not going to necessarily make me feel particularly comfortable. I'm going to want to see that there's some branding and accountability behind the systems. If you look at a POS and some of these are being very explicitly branded, because then you kind of know, I like to say, who's head to kick, if something goes wrong. So if something goes wrong, am I going to yell at the store owner? Or am I going to yell elsewhere? Or am I going to yell at PeachPay or Fast on the e-commerce side and how going back and forth with Stripe because those are the folks that actually have the money and are controlling it, not necessarily your local food monger.
Robbie: And I love that you brought up the Apple Card by the way, Robert, because I was thinking about that earlier and I meant to mention it. I love that technology, that I have a card that I can use as a credit card everywhere, but it has no information on it other than my name, there is no credit card number. There's no expiration number. There's no code on it. It is like, Hey, here's my card. And I love that. Now, it means I can't type in a number if I'm going to do e-commerce traditional way. I don't have that. But, if they've enabled Apple Pay, I'm good to go, right? And so which does work in Woo. So, we're all good there. So, I think that we're going to see more from the other credit card providers too. I think that's going to become a bigger thing, which also, again, changes our landscape of our online checkout processes, right?
We're going to see more and more of the very easy checkout process. I don't have to type out this long number and expiration code and all that, as well as, for our clients, the more important thing is they don't have to worry about that, they took those numbers from their customers. They're not responsible now, the security, the liability lowers tremendously. So I love it. I wish everybody would pay this way because, now we don't have to worry about if they're storing all their credit card, Lord forbid, they're storing all their credit card numbers hopefully, they're not doing that. They're letting somebody else do that, but let's just say the Stripe gets hacked, right? That's going to be tremendous, but not if it's all done with these numberless type or random not numbered type payments. It's going to be much more secure.
And I think this is going to become the way we do e-commerce going forward. And there may even be some cooler things that we don't even know about yet, right? But, I do think that it's going to become key. It's just so easy nowadays, to have your identity stolen, your credit card numbers stolen. And so going to these type of systems, it just makes more sense for everyone, everyone involved, right? The store owners, the customers, and definitely the builders out there, if they can sway their clients to going in ways that protect them, that's the best thing they can do.
Checks and cash are nearly obsolete for some [28:00]
Ronald: Yeah. I think touching on security is well done as well on this subject, because payments are a big security risk and responsibility for all store owners. And, it makes you wonder maybe cash will make a comeback, when you buy a wedge of brie and thank you very much. So I think we've touched a lot on payments and also the danger, we have so many different types of payments now. There's Apple Pay, there's there's credit cards, do you still have checks in the US?
Robbie: Oh yeah. We have checks and e-checks.
Robert: I have not used a check in years. It's just one of those things, I'm slowly seeing my lifestyle or money lifestyle change that are not using checks anymore. If I have cash, that's a complete accident and I had to get it for some really weird reason. That's just never on hand and more and more people are just getting comfortable with that idea. 10 years ago, I'd been like, what do you mean? I can't leave the house without at least a $20 for an emergency, because I'm going to need to get a cab. And now while no one gets a cab anymore, you just whip out your phone and call up an Uber and that's tied to your credit card. And, all these weird things that have really completely changed in 10 years and add the pandemic to it where people were like, well now you're forced to change.
We actually had a luxury, maybe even a technological acceleration for consumers and end users around all this stuff that they would've never thought about because they could just go to the ATM, get 20 bucks, buy some cheddar and call it a day. But now it's like, well I have my phone. It does 99% of everything I need to do from payments at the bricks on clicks. It's great.
Robbie: That's so funny Robert, because I still carry cash. I just still cannot get that out of my mind. I'm like, I better have some just in case. And I tell you what, I went to the farmer's market a couple of weeks ago and I had cash with me and I was like, I'm probably going to need this at the farmer's market. Oh goodness, I really did not need cash at the farmer's market. And I think I befuddled them every time I pulled out my cash to pay with, they were like, oh, let me see if I've got change.
Robert: Literally, perfect example. When I go to the kaiser stall and try to get something at the farmer's market, no one is actually looking for cash anymore. That's long gone.
Ronald: Even buskers have caught up on the game with a QR code.
Robert: I've not seen that yet. That's still cash.
Robbie: I don't know. But the first time I pass a person holding a sign under an intersection here in Houston, that has a QR code on it, I will definitely give them some money because I love that idea.
Robert: What's your address? Robbie.
Robbie: You're going to come sit underneath the intersection down here, Robert? I'll give you the address.
Robert: Right in front of the house.
Builders giving clients advice on the various payment types [31:06]
Ronald: I just want to give one last question. So, this is for the builders advising store owners. So, we've talked about so many different payment types, and even cryptocurrency is a big one that people use, different multi currencies as well. Wow. Again like, last time we spoke about checkout, there's so much to it. It's an absolute mine field to advise customers. So as a sort of a piece of advice to reassure them that the world is not all going to collapse or quite the opposite, what would you give to them?
Robbie: Well, I think I've said this in other shows before too, always our advice when we're working with our clients is to make sure to keep it simple. Don't go crazy. Don't try to offer every single payment out there known to man. That's just going to make things much more complicated. And if my client is selling cheese, they probably just know about selling cheese. They have no idea about all of this. Checkout things going on. That's where they're looking to us for advice. And our advice is always, let's take this slow and easy, right? Let's start with the prime ways we think your customers are going to pay. If they were brick and mortar, that's great. We have some sort of clue. We have an indicator of how people pay before, right? And because we have experience online, we have some ideas of how online sales normally go. So, we can advise them of the best things to start with.
And you mentioned crypto, which we haven't even really touched on in here, even though I think it is also going to be a much bigger topic over these next five years too, just because people know what it means now. I don't know if you watch the World Series, but every other commercial was about crypto. I was just like, wow. So, this is going to be a bigger discussion for us coming up really soon here. I would be very hesitant on a client right at this moment, advising them to jump into it with their e-commerce store, but I think we're going to see that coming up. And we're going to start seeing our clients asking us, that's when it really starts becoming something, right? When your clients start coming to you going, Hey, I was watching the world series and I saw this thing, I need to know what crypto is and I need to take crypto, do I? As builders, we need to start educating ourselves right now on this because, it's coming whether we want it to or not, it's coming.
Robert: Well. And, I love this whole crypto thing, first of all, because Matt Damon is so pretty selling crypto.com.
Robbie: Isn't he though?
Robert: I'm like really Matt Damon's selling crypto.com, anyway, you can get debit cards from these crypto providers, like Coinbase has a debit card that will reward you. You're going to spend it like cash. You keep a little cash account in there, but you get rewarded in crypto. So, you're going to see players like Coinbase, crypto.com and all those folks trying to get you to use their new economy platforms.
Ronald: Yeah. I think that's good food for thought for a lot of people, but, Robbie's advice, keep it simple, start slowly. And I think the store owners would know what their customers prefer to pay with, but also keep an open mind to the evolving world of payments and how people want to do business and be able to upgrade your systems easily. And again, where we start on with your accounting system, stock management also the marketing opportunities, there's so much out there and all very good positive, interesting developments as well, that don't need to cost a lot. I think as a small startup, you can create fantastic system that tick a lot of these boxes. And with just a number of few plugins, and as you scale, we talked about security, we talked about hosting, it's all sort of in a way taken care of. So thank you both, for this really great insight in the world of POS and as we make a move back into, to offline sales.
Robbie: I think we're all, as builders out there, we're going to be playing who moved my cheese with this over the next five years. Seriously, we're just going to have to keep watching.
Ronald: You're going to parmesan us on it off.
Robbie: Yes, we are.
Ronald: Well, Robert, I'll let you say one more word, whatever roquefort you can come up with.
Robert: I'm going to go with nimely.
Robbie: Oh, geez. This is difficult. I only get one word to wrap this whole thing up?
Ronald: Too many words. I'll have to bail you out. So it's been a real pleasure to talk to you both. Thank you. And we'll see you all next time.
BobWP: Hey everyone, thanks again for tuning in to today's show. I would like to give one more shoutout to our two Pod friends. Looking at ramping up reviews on your client sites, do checkout Trustpilot and their free extension on the WooCommerce marketplace. And for those clients looking for a powerful point-of-sales, FooSales.com has you covered.
And of course you can always stay on top of our episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your own favorite podcast app. So until next time, keep on Doing the Woo.
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