Innovative eCommerce with Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality

Do the Woo - A Podcast for WooCommerce Builders
Do the Woo - A Podcast for WooCommerce Builders
Innovative eCommerce with Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality
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In this episode of Do the Woo we are diving into the world of running an agency via our Woo BizChat.

Maja and Robbie have the pleasure of chatting with David Lockie from Angry Creative and Lisa Sabin-Wilson with WebDevStudios. As the tradition of the BizChat this is a great opportunity this time around to hear from those who are running or part of agencies that work in the Woo ecosystem.

Maja and Robbie talk with David and Lisa about:

  • What innovations and changes in eCommerce that they are excited about
  • The types of innovation coming to virtual reality and augmented reality that they would like to see in eCommerce, and subsequently, WooCommerce
  • Any advice they would give to those starting up a business in today’s climate
  • How they describe their favorite type of client
  • What tools they use for client communication and why
  • Where and how do they contribute to WordPress or WooCommerce
  • The number of projects their companies do using WooCommerce
  • Any of their projects that they are particularly proud of
  • What David and Lisa think is one of the biggest things that clients overlook whenever they come in to talk to them about a project

Connect with David & Lisa

Thanks to Our Pod Friends


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Maja: Welcome to 139 episode of WooBiz Chat today. We have amazing guests. We have David Lockie. Hi David, how are you?

David: Hey, I'm really good. Thanks. Happy to be here.

Maja: Lovely to have you as well. And we also have Lisa Sabin-Wilson. Lisa, thank you for joining us today.

Lisa: Thanks for having me.

Maja: It's a pleasure. So also I need to announce that Robbie Adair being our co-host is also present with us. Hello, Robbie. How are you today?

Robbie: I'm doing fantastic and I'm really, really glad at getting towards the end of the week. This is great. I'm making it through.

Maja: Yeah. Are you looking forward to today's show? I think we are going to be asking very interesting questions and I'm sure some of these questions have been popping up in some other heads as well.

Robbie: Yes, absolutely. We've got some great questions I think lined up here and I'm really anxious to hear you all to answers. And I think that they will be different. Some will be the same answers and some will be different answers so I'm really looking forward to this. So one of the first things that we want to kind of dive into is it's about how ecommerce is developing now and there's a lot of innovations that are happening in there. And what are you guys excited about seeing the changes and the innovations that are happening in ecommerce? What are you seeing? And David, we'll let you start.

David: I definitely like to live with one foot in the future in terms of tech, although I try and stay rooted in the present as well. So the things which I'm particularly excited about are artificial intelligence technologies weaving their way into the technology generally, but ecommerce is an important part of that and you may also know I'm a bit of a cryptocurrency and blockchain nerd.

So I'm fascinated by some of the things which are happening in that space and how both of those things can sort of open where we are with ecommerce today and create, I think kind of in response to COVID, but it was just really accelerating a trend that was there anyway sort of how do we open up the world through ecommerce. That's sort of the thing which really gets me going about ecommerce is just and particularly kind of open source ecommerce and WooCommerce is that anyone can sell anything anywhere to anyone at any time under their own conditions. And I just think that's a really powerful idea for society and for the world.

Robbie: Awesome. Lisa, what about yourself?

Lisa: A couple of things, I think we've seen the door kind of slam wide open in ecommerce just in the last year like the adoption of digital commerce, I think accelerated decades time in one year due to COVID. And I think that's really changed the landscape of consumers online and what they're expecting and the services that companies can provide.

I'm really excited about contents around augmented reality giving people a 3D rendering of whatever product it is and being able to take that 3D rendering and put it in your house somewhere that you can see what it looks like, allowing the customization of those renderings for people so that they can fully customize their experience. I just think that people are really looking for ways to engage with products from the comfort of their own homes right now, even when things and these lockdowns ease up, which we've seen start happening. I think the changes in digital commerce are here to stay, even though we weren't looking to make those changes quite yet, the pandemic sort of forced our hand.

Maja: That is awesome. I mean, I also would like to understand one more thing. You both are professionals developing your own business and the business of your clients and sometimes if maybe even better say most of the time, those businesses are in a form of an ecommerce. So I do have perhaps a private question for both of you, what type of innovation when it comes to virtual reality or augmented reality you'd love to see applied within those ecommerce or WooCommerce online shops? Is there anything new as a user and then as a maker as well, you think still misses to fulfill this joy of shopping online, right?

Lisa: I'll kind of hop on that since I brought up augmented reality. To begin with, I think that companies and brands need to make sure that it is a consistent experience for all users. They need to make sure that that augmented reality is implemented in a way that is useful to the end-user, to the consumer, not just so that they can say they have augmented reality, but it needs to be something purposeful and useful so it needs to be implemented thoughtfully. There's a kit called Threekit that has an integration with WooCommerce that is really interesting. And it's threekit.com and it's spelled out like the number three is spelled three, T-H-R-E-Ekit.com.

They've got a WooCommerce integration that provides 3D product visualization, augmented reality, product configuration. So these are the things that brands and companies are doing. I just think doing it smart, getting consultants who are familiar with the technology into really help implement that because I really don't think digital users right now are willing to deal with less than quality experiences online. If your competitor has got it nailed, then you need to get it nailed because otherwise your buyers are going to go somewhere else for the experience of purchasing in your online store.

Maja: Awesome. David, what do you think about augmented reality? How it will actually, or virtual reality how it will contribute to shopper's experience?

David: I mean, I agree with every Lisa said. I think really what that change in the market is waiting for is like a de facto standards, great experience. And I think if you read about what Apple's been doing over the last 10 years and what they've talked about with their app or 3D experience, I can imagine that that is going to be totally revolutionary. So, an interactive likeness of the world, the devices, all that stuff. This is clearly their vision for what happens next.

And when they're ready and they launch it, I think it's going to really freak people out. I don't know if you've seen Ready Player One and those sort of the visualizations at the metaverse, but I think when we talk about headless commerce today, and we're really just talking about having a JavaScript front end, I think that it's going to get totally blown away when we think about headless commerce as in like it's ambient environment all around us.

You look in the mirror, you're wearing the dress, or you are changing your hair color, or anything that you can imagine it experiencing suddenly will become vivid in a way that is off the screen. And I just think that is going to be so transformative and revolutionary that it's kind of difficult to imagine what the post 3D world is going to look like and what that shopping experience looks like for people.

And really, I think one of the challenges that everyone that isn't Amazon has is how can you execute this well to even stay in the same park? Because it's going to be a lot of change for merchants to get their heads around having to have like 3D models, much higher resolution photography, managing all of, even just the infrastructure behind it that laid all the standards that lay in the content management.

And I think one of the reasons I'm kind of into the AI side of it is that AI has this power to take content that's in one format and transform it into other formats. And I think that's going to be the magic ingredient that let us take the web as it is now and kind of bootstrap it into the 3D web because we simply can't just sort of transform it or we're going to have to rely on these robotic transformations of stuff.

And we can see some examples of that happening now. I found this really cool service where you can you put a URL of a product page or a blog post into a tool and it transforms it into a video. So, that's like more trivial example, but I think we'll start seeing the same sort of tools that sort of create these 3D experiences based on content that already exists. So I think it's going to get pretty wild pretty quickly.

Lisa: That's how we'd like it, David. We love the landscape changing and shifting and moving and progressing with technology. That's what excites me about being involved in this industry.

Robbie: Yeah. There's such cool stuff that is happening out there. I think it is amazing. And I really love your idea, David, that AI will be the biggest game-changer for integrating in AR and VR. I think that's a very unique perspective on it. I like that. There's apps now that you can take pictures of objects and it will create a 3D model for you and things like that, and which is using some AI kind of generation in there. And so I think that's really interesting idea there. And boy, wouldn't it be cool to just be in your video game and put on your little suit and go, "Boy, this really does look good on me. I think I'll also put it in my shopping cart."

I mean, that's kind of cool. So, guys, let's talk a little business too. We've really talked about what's cutting edge and what's coming up in ecommerce. But if we have some people who are looking at starting their own business right now, your client's going to come to you and say, "I'm going to start a new ecommerce business." What are some of the things that you would give them as advice right now for starting in our current economy or our current world situation we have going on and things like that? Lisa, we'll start with you.

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, I just think that right now, again, the pandemic shifted everything. So there's never been a more critical moment for companies and brands to really know their audience to relate to what their audience is experiencing and to really gain a competitive advantage by delivering engagement the clients, however that looks like for them. So I would say development of in getting back to the basics like development of user personas, who you're dealing with, who are you serving, how are they making their way through your site in order to buy that product and really understanding sort of that contextualized engagement that consumers have in order to deliver kind of a connected experience for them.

And by connected experience, I mean all of the services that you need to provide as a digital shop, things like curbside pickup, delivery. If you're delivering augmented reality or any kind of 3D rendering or customization features, making sure that is a seamless experience for them because consumers on the web have changed quite a bit in the last year and everybody's expectations and standards, the bar has raised. How many people were ordering groceries online in 2019 versus 2020?

And what changes and shifts did we see in that grocery ordering? I personally saw a lot. I saw grocery stores that didn't do curbside, contactless payment, pickup. Kind of figure it out and they had to do it because that's who their customer is now. So I think really understanding your customer in order to engage with them is probably my first piece of advice I would give to companies who are looking to run ecommerce online, know who you're selling to.

Robbie: Absolutely, David?

David: I would probably have two things. So they're very far apart on the spectrum, one is about, I guess, really knowing yourself and understanding what do you want to achieve in the world? How does this business help you achieve it? What are the outcomes that you want and how do you design a business that's going to do that? Because it's very easy to be busy. It's very difficult to create real relevance in long-term value. And I think the more that technologies disrupt busy work, the more important it is to have something that is fundamentally important to you and to other people around you. So that's one of the really nice things about technology is I think it allows us to go away from the stacking paper and the meaning they're sort of trivia and think about like, what is the change that we want to see in the world?

And we now have examples of businesses that one person that created these incredible value, really using very little in terms of human capital. And so there's this whole opportunity to orchestrate the tools and the technology around us in pursuit of our individual passions and goals. And I think that is it's really important to know yourself and to know why you're doing this? What is the why? The second one I would say is that the company that knocks Amazon off the top isn't going to be like another Amazon. It's going to be something different. You don't win against an incumbent that powerful by just doing the same thing. Their motive is too big. And so I think on one hand, you've sort of dialed right back to very human values.

On the other hand, you've got it looked like forge beyond what is commonplace. You've got to look at what the kids are doing. You've got to look at what people are doing, like beyond TikTok. What are people doing in the crypto space? What are people doing in the e-gaming and e-sports? And what does 3D world look like? And kind of imagine what combination of these new tech trends that are coming down the line might help support your cause in a way that is going to be more powerful than using the tools that we've got today because ecommerce is really difficult at the moment. You kind of have all of these different barriers at most of different levels, right? If you become wildly popular, then Amazon just clones all of your stuff in China for a 10th of the price.

If you get really busy doing something artisanal then you reached a limit of how much you can produce. And so trying to find something that is a meaningful or sustainable, defensible, valuable ecommerce business, it's just really difficult. And I think you have to combine that human centrism with something innovative like an innovative combination and orchestration these new technologies to find a way ahead. And I think it's just a really difficult thing to do. And I'm always in awe of people who set out to start a business.

Maja: Awesome. I'm sure you guys have amazing number of clients. So I just wanted to understand, I mean, since you are not just a company providing online presence, but you also do the business strategy for certain companies, right? Who come to you, who ask for advice, you are actually the consultant for their presence and brand. So I was just wondering, is there a favorite type of client that you'd like to work with? How does an amazing or extraordinary client looks like, or what type of characteristics those would have? I'm just curious if you know.

Lisa: The ones with big budgets who pay on time.

Robbie: I was going to say, Lisa, those are my favorite clients too.

Lisa: Yeah. Probably David as well, I would venture a guess. Outside of those two qualities, I think that some of my favorite clients to work with are two things. One they're very engaged with their project and their product. But they're engaged in the project enough to work together with us to help us meet their goals. I don't like the client who comes and says, "Here's all the things that I need. Goodbye, I'll talk to you in a month, get it done." I really love that client who's collaborative, who's working together with us, who's approving things as we go. And then the other thing is a realistic client, understanding especially in the area of ecommerce. You really need to have a realistic view of your reach and your ability to meet the goals that you've set, whether that's inventory management or the costs associated with running ecommerce.

It's not all just about making money, with an ecommerce store you're paying for shipping in some cases. You're paying for different services in order to sell your product online. I mean, just outside of WooCommerce, if you decide to sell on Shopify, for example, you've got fees associated with that. A client who has done their homework, who understands the landscape and is realistic and open to having conversations that are based in reality, not conversations that would be best on it like a marketing handbook or something. But this is the reality of what we're looking at here. So engaged and realistic, those are my two favorite qualities.

Maja: I love this. By the way, while you are still talking before I asked David the same question, is there any favorite tool that you use for communicating with clients? Is there something specific that you use or it's just regular stuff like emails, SMS, and stuff?

Lisa: WebDevStudios uses the Atlassian Suite of products. So that's Jira, Confluence. We use Zoom for regular weekly or biweekly updates to the client. Very rarely are we using email because these days email is where communication goes to die. So we do like to use those sort of cloud-based tools that keep documentation and communication in one spot.

Maja: Awesome.

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And now back to the show.

Maja: And David, a very hard question for you. What's your favorite type of client and what tools you use actually to communicate with them in order to achieve success?

David: All of the things, rich, happy to pay, all the things that Lisa said for sure. I think clients for whom we can make a really significant difference. I really enjoy working with those where you know that what you do really matters. It's not just a mega corp and profits will be one percent up or down, depending on how well the project goes, but it's a really important, impactful project for them. And then also, the other side of that, that the project that you're helping them to achieve is important in some way. So it might not be up your street personally, but it might be you can see that they're passionate about and it's a real thing. It's not just like I want to make some money doing something.

It's like I really care about this and I'm in it. So there's that side of it. I also really like when clients teach you. So I think we can be the experts in WooCommerce, WordPress and related technologies, but I really like clients that are smarter than us in lots of other ways because I just find them really inspired to work with. And I think one of the things that I've definitely learned is that being humble just because somebody's never done any ecommerce project before doesn't mean that they're not an extremely inspiring, brave, knowledgeable, wise business person in so many other ways. So those are the people that really float my boat. In terms of tools, I think probably the anti-productivity tool is Slack is probably my favorite, I think because it can be funnier than any other business communication tool.

There's something about the real-time communication. The fact that when you joined a Slack, you get to use all their emojis and gifs and everything else. We've got loads of internal ones, but we have external ones that shared with clients as well. And when they come in, I feel like they get a much experience. Because I do this as well. I join other people's Slack. And I feel like it gives you a really good idea of what the culture is and what the sense of humor is. And it just allows a more human connection than a lot of the other channels.

Robbie: Yeah. We actually did an article talking about using Discord for business. You use Slack for business and it is wildly popular and it's just amazing all the questions that we're getting about it.

David: It's so cool.

Robbie: Yeah. We're actually going to do a little course on it just because it's so fascinating that people just like you said, I think it's because it's different. It's not your normal have a task and someone else can leave a comment on it. It's real-time. You can tell the personality the people you're talking to in there. It is a much more relaxed. And I think Discord just gives you that audio piece of that they don't, that you have to go into a meeting to have the audio whereas Discord has the open chat channels. I guess, that's kind of what Clubhouse is based about too so I think it's interesting.

David: I spend a lot of time in Discords with my crypto hat on and what people get up to, and there is like, "Wow, there's so many different automations." And you know what I mean? I mentioned this is sort of one of the trends that I'm really interested in but it's like the organizational side of crypto where it's not only remote by default, but it's also often pseudonymous by default. So you don't really know who the people are. And the business is essentially just software and a Discord. And these are going to be more billion-dollar businesses that are making massive changes in the world. It's not all Dogecoin, there's some really interesting stuff going on and the way that people use those sorts of platforms to power communities and sort of really, truly self-governed because there is no centralized party in there.

It's mind-blowing to see. And I think if you want to look at what the future of business looks like, I think it's much more like that massive-multiplayer online games, Discord's self-organizing communities of interest than it is, big glass and steel buildings with CEO's getting paid 500x the average worker. I just think that's an ivory tower that's going to crumble.

Robbie: Totally agree.

David: I hope it is anyway.

Robbie: Yeah, exactly. I know. I was actually just listening to a chat they were doing in Clubhouse about NFTs and it was fascinating. I mean, some of the use cases that they were starting to come up with. I was like, "Wow, never thought of that." I think that's the biggest change that we're seeing right now is people with these new technologies figuring out new ways to use it to in businesses. So I think that's really awesome. I have a quick question for you guys and that is do you contribute to Woo? Maybe some of your teammates. What type of contributions do you do or do you do any?

Lisa: Personally, I don't. Outside of writing about it in my books, for sure. WooCommerce is definitely a hot topic around ecommerce and ecommerce is a hot topic for WordPress users so obviously it shows up in my books. Our team, we do Five for the Future at WebDevStudios, which is contributing to the WordPress Core or WordPress community. In some ways, we donate one full day a month, where everybody in our company is working that entire day paid to contribute to a WordPress and related technologies, whether that is being on the core team or contributing to theme reviews or plugin reviews, plugin development, and even WooCommerce. So as a company, yes. I can't pinpoint specifically to anything that we contributed recently to WooCommerce, but I could find out.

Robbie: Oh, no, I was just curious and that's fabulous you do one day a month. I love that.

Lisa: Yeah. We typically let our team contribute to whatever open-source project that relates to WordPress it's out there. So it's a way of giving back.

Robbie: David?

David: We don't do it in such a structured way. And I think what we have to do is excellent and really admirable. We have contributed to work like WooCommerce Core and WordPress Core as a business. We open-source everything that we do so we often build plugins that solve particular problems, although that's sort of in our interests as well. And also I think that the more that we can do to keep people using the Woo ecosystem, the better. So I feel like we contribute quite well there. I'd say that over the pandemic, it's been less contributed than we'd like, and that's something that we've definitely reflected on as a leadership team.

So we're going to address that and make sure that there are sort of clearer ways for people to do that. It's just been a bit sort of scramble mode, but now contributing to Woo is really, really important. I'm definitely not qualified to contribute any code, but I try and do my bit in other ways, writing or talking, or just coming on podcasts like this and trying to share the things that I've seen in my previous position of being able to go out outside of an IDE and go and look at what's happening in the wider world and just sort of try and be a bit of connective tissue there.

Maja: Very nice. I think even us speaking here it's and sitting here and sharing our knowledge is also part of contribution. So Lisa, please calculate this as an additional hour of contributing. I have a question for both Lisa and David, is there a count of how many Woo projects you've done so far? Do you use some calculations for the history page or something?

Lisa: We don't. We've been in business for 13 years and I can say any ecommerce website we've used has used WooCommerce. We've never used anything other. I would say off the top of my head, probably in the last five years, we've probably been engaged in maybe about a dozen, dozen and a half WooCommerce ecommerce type builds.

Maja: And is there any project that you're particularly proud of or that was very complex? Or is there any project that actually stayed in your mind mark somewhere?

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, WebDevStudios in, I want to say 2017, 2018, we worked for two solid years building the commerce platform for H-E-B and their related centralmarket.com website. That was a huge bill that we were involved in. And now that website got built, it was handed off to another agency in the community space. I think we all know Patrick Garman running Mindsize. They're now managing centralmarket.com and I believe, heb.com. Those supermarkets are really large supermarkets in the state of Texas only. There's 13, they've just got a massive amount of inventory and they showcase over 26,000 individual product variations.

And that number 26,000, that's from 2018 so I'm sure it's expanded a lot since then. And I know during the pandemic they've implemented things like curbside pickup, delivery, wishlist, online cooking classes, all sorts of things, but building the platform with WordPress, with WooCommerce had its challenges. If you can imagine a grocery store has a regular product data synchronization when you're talking about inventory and price variations, different coupons, different specials that go out. So, that is one that I'm particularly proud of that you can find that at centralmarket.com.

Maja: Thank you very much. David, what about you?

David: I mean Angry Creative specializes in Woo builds. So I think we probably have hundreds of active clients now. It's definitely in the hundreds we've been involved with over the last few years. Does it have to be a client project, or can I shell our own internal projects?

Maja: Yes.

David: I'm really proud of the work that we're doing, it's a project called Qala, which is Q-A-L-A and it's our internal productized WooCommerce offering. So it's WordPress, it's WooCommerce, it's a bunch of curated plugins from around the ecosystem that we know do jobs really well. So they are ones that we have to take responsibility for. Some of them payment plugins, some are shipping, others might be a multi-lingual plugin like multi-lingual press from our friends at Inpsyde. And then there's a bunch of plugins we felt that fill some of the gaps.

So for example, we have and running the latest releases, we have something called color Global Cart. It's quite a simple project... It's quite annoying. So if you're in one locale of a store and you add some products and then you change to a different locale, by default your cart empties again. What Global Cart does is it uses a product skews to then rebuild the cart into the new locale. So although we're on a totally different instance, if those products in a new cart. You've still got your basket there. And as a consumer, it's going to make you a lot more likely to continue your buying journey and to check out. So I think there are probably maybe 20 of our own little plugins that just do little bits and pieces like that but overall adds up to making a really cohesive experience.

And I think the way that Angry and this is work that was done before my time so I'm not taking credit for it, but I think the vision of adding productized services around this sort of very stable, curated core, that it gives people everything that they need to start selling successfully with the WooCommerce is a really good idea because it means that there's none of this sort of which plugins should reuse business.

There's no uncertainty when it comes to updates, everything's pretty predictable and because everything's standardized, it can be done at scale. And it also then shines a light on where more than one customer is seeking to solve a particular problem. None of that stuff is sort of behind the scenes and under the hood in terms of performance. So we have to talk about the widgets as well. There's one called Djerf Avenue, which is like a Swedish influencer site. And they do these fashion drops so no traffic, no traffic. They drop something on their social and suddenly you've got thousands of concurrent add to basket. And that's a really interesting challenge. And one that I know the team really proud of.

Robbie: Well, guys, I want to ask, what do you think when you have these customers coming in because both of you have quite an array of clients, have done a lot of builds, what do you think is one of the biggest things that your clients overlook whenever they come in to talk to you about their project? What is something you think that is a fairly common thing that's overlooked?

Lisa: When we talked to clients about a project whether it's a ecommerce project or big media build or whatever, it doesn't matter what it is. I think that clients sometimes don't think beyond just the cost of building it, of doing the thing. They don't think about the cost of user acceptance testing, QA testing at the end of a project, bug fixes towards the end of the project, the cost of project and account management, things that kind of get built into an overall budget. Sometimes you get clients who come and they've got a little bit of experience building out websites, and they're like, "I can build that menu. It's going to take me an hour to do this." But when you hire on an agency, you're not just hiring hours for devs to put code down to make a thing work, you're hiring that agency to also make sure that best practices are followed, that your website has accessibility answered for.

Because you're hiring for that quality. And that quality only happens, yes through building the product, but also through testing, performance testing, accessibility testing, all of those things that go into it as well. So a lot of times we're educating the clients on why those costs exist and if they don't want to pay for those classes, then what that's kind of saying to me is you don't want to pay for that quality for that testing for the outcome that we are promising you as experts in our field.

David: That is a very good list of things that people don't account for in terms of project budgets and it's like a continual conversation. For me, probably the biggest thing that they overlook is that they think it's a project. They think back to going to get a brochure designed, or even in the early days, you get a brochure site done and put up. If you're going to be successful online now, digital is an integral part of your business and it's an ongoing practice. Sure, we have to have project managers, we have to have experts outside, but they also have to commit to the project their side as well. So, not just give them a project to manage to somebody who's already stressed out, overload, never managed a website project before, it doesn't really have the buy-in from the senior people.

The most successful website builds we get are where that business really engages like Lisa said earlier, and that involves engagement at all levels, right? Your website is your organization's skin. It's what the outside world sees. It's how they experience you as an organization. I think unless you embed that really tightly, that digital experience and with the real business experience, you're going to lose to a competitor that does. I think they underestimate how involved it is in every way from writing the homepage copy to the burden of the project management meetings, to the testing, to all the stuff that they spent days or weeks putting together this website brief and it's 5% complete.

There's a long list of stuff, it's just a heck of a lot more involved than most people realize and it's one of the things that I feel is hardest for agencies to navigate because you don't want to just be going sucking your teeth and saying, "That's going to be really expensive."

You don't want to be saying to your client, "This is going to cost you all the money that you've got and more, and you're going to get a quarter of it done." You don't want to be telling them that they're stupid to have overlooked all this stuff. So it's a very difficult balance to try to find where you're being responsible and you practice successfully, performance, security, testing, release management, all of the stuff that doesn't affect the thing that pops on the screen, how you sell your expertise and how you attract clients that will respect that and how you manage that whole process. It's not any difficult. It's evolving all the time. Right? Because people go from agency to client-side, clients are getting more and more sophisticated. One of the things that is really tough is we do a lot of takeovers.

So we pick up sites that other people have run around with, or the relationship's falling apart. Often now it's been about build and now they're like, where else can you help? And clients are often then once bitten, twice shy and the trust, not the trust of the old agency, but just the trust with doing everything with a website. We don't charge for therapy like digital therapy, but probably we should. So, there's just loads of stuff. We could be here all night. This could be a whole podcast topic.

Lisa: As you're talking, I'm thinking about five other things that I could add on to that as well. But yeah.

Robbie: I think when you said too, they had a lot of clients are used to getting a brochure done and you come in and you say, I want this. Maybe you go back and forth with proofs. It's done. It is done. And what I think a lot of clients don't realize is that a website is a living, breathing thing, it's never done.

Lisa: Right.

Robbie: Ever. So well, guys, I really, really appreciate you coming on and sharing your knowledge. Went down some rabbit holes there, I love it. But how can people follow you to learn more about what you have to share out there in the world? How can they find you on the web?

Lisa: Everybody can find me at webdevstudios.com. That is our main company website. We're also on Twitter WebDevStudios at WebDevStudios. I'm also on Twitter at Lisa Sabin-Wilson, but that's a really long name. So just find me at webdevstudios.com and somebody there will point you in the right direction.

Robbie: Cool. David?

David: Yeah, same for us. We've got angrycreative.com or you happen to be Swedish, angrycreative.se. I am most places that you'd expect a boomer to be at divydovy, which is D-I-V-Y-D-O-V-Y. Don't ask me why, I inherited that handle a long time ago, and it's impossible to change now so there it is. Twitter, I spend too much time on Twitter. If you want to hang out I'll be there.

Robbie: Well, thank you again for being a guest today. We appreciate it. And we also want to thank a couple of our Pod Friends today for their support. We'd like to mention 10up.com and Wayflyer.com. Again, thanks for joining us and we will talk to you on the next episode.