Training, Open Source and WooCommerce with Robbie Adair

Do the Woo - WooCommerce Podcast, Community and News
Do the Woo - WooCommerce Podcast, Community and News
Training, Open Source and WooCommerce with Robbie Adair
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In this episode, we take advantage of the diverse experience of our guest. Robbie Adair, owner of the Media A-Team agency and the online training resource OSTraining, brings a mix of education and experience in open-source that has expanded at least a couple of decades.

Having started to use Joomla, then adding WordPress and eventually WooCommerce, she has some unique insight into the space. And her solid background in providing education in the open-source ecosystem adds significantly to the conversation.

A Chat with Robbie

Brad and I talk with Robbie about:

  • How she discovered WooCommerce during a Joomla session
  • What shifts she has seen in the 20-year history of her agency— and what she sees as the highlights
  • How she finds the balance between offering Joomla and WordPress to her clients
  • How much her eCommerce offerings have shifted since her decision to moving use WooCommerce
  • The advantages of having worked with and trained on multiple platforms
  • How the training business complements her agency
  • Training those who want to build their own sites vs. those who want to build sites for others
  • Why it is important for first time Woo developers to understand the basics of extensions and themes before diving into the code
  • What she sees with the marketshare coming into WordPress and how it compares to other platforms

Connect with Robbie


Thanks to our Pod Friends

GoDaddy Pro
WP Activity Log

Brad: Welcome back to another exciting episode of Do the Woo. Episode number 109. We're back for another fun show, Bob. How are you doing over there?

Bob: I'm doing good. I think this is spring time. I don't always tell so much by the weather, but my allergies are telling me big time. So, I definitely know spring is on its way.

Brad: Spring is definitely in the air. That's for sure. A lot of allergies going around this past week or so. But you know what? I'll take it. The warm weather, the sun, it beats the torrential downpour of snow we had the past few months. So, I'm excited to get into spring, get into summer and get out in the sun. Get away from the computer. Although maybe we shouldn't be telling our listeners to get away from the computer. But, put us in your ear and go for a walk and enjoy the sun.

But we've got a great show. So, let's dive in.

First and foremost, we always want to thank our sponsors, our community sponsor, PayPal, of course. With the PayPal Commerce Platform, your clients can be rest assured of fraud protection. And with seller protection, it helps to avoid chargebacks, reversals, fees and even customer disputes. So, you can find that over at paypal.com/business/solutions. As always, we thank PayPal for being a long-time, loyal sponsor. And honestly, if you're selling things online, you should be accepting PayPal because everybody has it and it makes it easy.

We also want to thank our Pod Friends this week. Up first is WP Activity Log. Helps your clients keep track of team changes in WooCommerce such as changes in the store settings, coupons, orders, products and more, which in turn improves team accountability and meeting various compliance requirements. So, check that out. WPActivityLog.com.

And finally, our Pod Friend GoDaddy Pro and their Expand 2021 Conference, which is coming up later this month. It's a free virtual event, April 27th and 28th, that brings the web designer and developer community together to share ideas, experiences, make connections and support each other. So, check that out at events.godaddy.com.

And Bob, I was actually checking out Expand 2021 and I saw a couple of familiar faces on that speaker list. In fact, a co-host of this show is on that speaker list. Jonathan Wold is going to be speaking at that event. And I see Adam Warner over there, a long-time friend of the WordPress space. And it's actually going to be hosted by another long-time friend, Dre Armeda. So, definitely looks to be an event you don't want to miss. It's 100% online. April 27, 28. So, that's going to be a good one. Looking forward to that.

Brad: With that, let's get into it, Bob, because we've got an awesome show. We've got a great guest. I'd like to officially welcome on Robbie Adair. Welcome to Do the Woo. How are you doing?

Robbie: I'm doing great. Thank you for asking and thank you for having me on the show. And by the way, I'm going to hands down beat you both on the pollen count going on here because we're much hotter than you guys and let me tell you, I'm living on allergy meds right now.

Brad: And Robbie's down in Texas. And, of course, I'm up near Philly and Bob's way up in the Pacific Northwest. So, it is definitely warmer and I'm sure you have quite a bit more pollen than we do. We'll let you win that one.

But we're excited to have you on the show, Robbie. We always like to ask our guests when they come on, why don't you give us a little history of how you got into WordPress, how you got into open source, ultimately, how you have gotten into WooCommerce and we'll kind of take it from there. So, how do you Do the Woo?

Robbie: Right. Well, so WooCommerce, I will say, oddly enough, my first foray into WooCommerce was actually in a Joomla session that I was doing because I was actually showing how to tie databases together between Joomla and WordPress. And I was pulling products from WooCommerce. So, I installed it and learned WooCommerce so that I would at least looked like I knew what I was doing. And this was some years ago.

And since then, because in my agency side we build WordPress sites, and so we've just gotten to know it much more intimately because it is definitely the solution that we use with our WordPress clients for e-commerce.

And then also I have OSTraining and we train WooCommerce. So, we have a course for it. We also have WooCommerce Explained book as well out there that's used in a ton of colleges and schools around the country.

Brad: That's awesome. And you've been in the agency space, coming up on 20 years. To be running your own agency, that's an amazing accomplishment. So, congrats on that.

Robbie: I started it when I was 12. We're going to go with that anyway. But yes, it is a long time that we've had the agency. As a matter of fact, this will really date me, when we started the agency Flash 5 had just come out and we were all excited about Flash 5 video. So, wow.

Brad: Now, here we are 20 years later and Flash was just retired officially end of last year.

Robbie: I know. I know. Well, at least the way we outlived Flash. So, that's a good thing.

Brad: That's a good thing. I'll take that one all day long. But yeah, I mean, having been in the agency space for 20 years, let's just say 20 years, let's round up a little bit. You've obviously seen a lot of trends in the world of web development, web design, functionality. Smartphones, tablets certainly didn't exist back in 2012... or I'm sorry, 2002. This is how far back we're going. 2002 here. I mean, hell, Twitter and Facebook didn't exist in 2002.

Robbie: They sure did not.

Brad: So, a lot has changed. I mean, just kind of thinking back across that two decades of having your own agency, are there key points that really there was more of a shift in the way people were building sites or the way people were designing? And are there key markers throughout that 20 year history that you can maybe pinpoint? You're like, "That was a major shift in kind of how we're doing things and kind of a neat time to be a part of that"?

Robbie: Well, what I find interesting, looking at it as a whole, is that we kind of ebb and flow, is what I'll say. So, we'll build sites with Dreamweaver, HTML, and then we'll say, "Oh no, this isn't the way. Now, we need content management." And then we'll go back to, "Well, we want content management, but then we want to flatten it back out and make a flat site out of it." And so, it's just like tables versus grid.

Brad: It's a vicious cycle.

Robbie: It is. We're always, in the end, trying to accomplish what we started trying to accomplish even 20 years ago, which is having a great presence out there. Obviously, now, that presence is even bigger because, as you said, smartphones came into existence during that time. And before, I mean, I did have a Motorola flip phone, but I wasn't looking at any websites on there. But now, I mean, we spend our day on our smartphones. And so, just seeing how it's still the same, we're trying to accomplish the same things; we're just now trying to accomplish it on a lot more platforms, a lot more screen sizes. Maybe I want to show up on Apple TV or Apple Store, things like this.

And so, we're still thinking about getting our message out there. It's still getting the message out there for our clients, whether it be they're selling their products or whether they're just trying to sell their brand story. We're still trying to get that message out there, which is where we started even 20 years ago. That was the whole point of it. That was the whole point of the websites. So, that's what I see, is that it's been 20 years and yeah, there are a lot of changes. If we want to just talk technology-wise, lots of changes technology-wise, but the ultimate goal is still the same as it was.

Bob: So, one of the things I'm curious about is with your agency, you started in Joomla, then you went to WordPress and you brought in Woo Commerce at some point. You've got that balancing act. And a lot of agencies are using different platforms, which is a good thing because you have a lot of options for your clients. At this point in time, kind of how do you decide, first of all, between Joomla and WordPress? And does Joomla play into the e-commerce part of the element anymore? Or is it now, "Hey, we're using WooCommerce quite a bit" because it just works out that way?

Robbie: That's an excellent question. And so, what I'm going to start with on that is that one, the client may drive that decision. So, first of all, we actually have clients who come in asking for certain platforms. And so, the client may drive that decision. That's kind of more rare, that the client actually comes in knowing what they're asking for. But usually, the client comes in saying, "This is what I want to accomplish," and then they put it on us to figure out what would be the best way to do that.

So, now, with e-commerce being said, if they want their e-commerce built in, we almost 100% now go with WordPress and WooCommerce. If they're going to go with a Joomla site, maybe we're building a custom application inside of it with Fabrik, in which case there could be some little bits of e-commerce tied into that. And those are done with special plugins. It's not a shopping cart, as it were, necessarily. And if they need a full-fledged shopping cart, but they need a Joomla site, a lot of times we go with SAS products for that. Maybe we're using Ecwid, Shopify, something like that.

So, we really have done all kinds of things. I mean, we've done Magento storage, you name it. I mean, we've been across the map with e-commerce. That is true. We've done all kinds of things. Even just simple PayPal buy buttons. I mean, so e-commerce is all across the map. But when they need full-fledged stores and they want to manage it inside of their site, then WooCommerce is the route that we go, as well as even we're building a new site ourselves for OSTraining and we'll have WooCommerce in there for the e-commerce section of it too. So, you're always just trying to make the right decision for what the ultimate goal is for the client.

Brad: And that's a good segue into the training over at ostraining.com because I know one challenge I've had in the past is when you're working on different platforms, and especially from your customer or client standpoint, is the training side of it, right?

Robbie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Brad: Getting the users, your clients, your user, maybe that's you or maybe it's somebody you're building a site for, but getting them comfortable using the platform that you're setting them up with, WooCommerce, WordPress, Joomla or otherwise.

And now with OSTraining, which is under your umbrella, it would seem that you have a perfect platform to help with that training for not only your clients, but really anybody that wants to come over and get some kind of more in-depth virtual learning, if you will, through OSTraining.

Robbie: Absolutely. So, before I started my agency, I worked in corporate America in training. That was what I did. I was a training director. I managed instructors. I developed curriculum. It was what I did.

And so, when I started the agency, we actually did some custom training for the first, I don't know, probably seven years of the agency. It was a big sector. 40%, 50% of our work was actually customized training. But it was all customized. So, we would go in, maybe a large corporation wanted us to go in and train their people on how to specifically use their project management tool to do their specific things in it, or maybe they wanted us to go in and train them on how to update a Joomla site or a WordPress site or you name, a Drupal site, whatever it might be. They would have us come in and train on just those specific things just for their company.

And so, over the years, I met Steve Berg, who had, at the time, it was Joomla training and then it became OSTraining. And he asked me to do some classroom training in Houston. And it was actually great. I loved it because I had been out of the classroom, as it were, for years running the agency. And I just, I loved it. I loved getting back in and doing those classes. It wasn't just a customer and I'm doing their custom thing; it was just a open-source class, as it were. So, it was open-source product and just an open class. And I really, really enjoyed it.

So, then fast-forward years later when Steve was selling OSTraining, I was like, "I'm absolutely interested in this," because it's really my passion. Me, myself and my team as an agency, there's only so much we can do out there. I mean, there's just so much you can do. And so, for us, a broader spread is if we train people how to do things... and on OSTraining, we have a lot of other agencies that are members because then they can train their new... when they onboard people and they want to ramp them up on Joomla or WordPress or Drupal or anything, they can just get them a membership in OSTraining and ramp them up very quickly.

Brad: I was going to ask how technical that gets because certainly, there's the kind of intro, like why you should even use WordPress, but then it certainly seems like it digs in the even more technical side of it. Does it get pretty technical in some of these training classes?

Robbie: Some of them do. And actually, that's one of our goals in the next couple of years, is we're going to add some more intermediate and advanced courses. We definitely have a great, I feel like, foundation on the beginner classes. That is really our bread and butter, as it were. And that's where a ton of our people who come in, they've either just like... they're working a job and they've been handed over a WordPress site and they're like, "It's yours now. Take care of it." And they're like, "Oh my gosh. How do I log in?"

And so, we get a lot of those type of users, that they're coming in from, "I know nothing. I've just heard about this WordPress. What do I do?" And so, we've got to that beginner foundation. Not only beginning WordPress, let's say, but also just some fundamentals on HTML and CSS, which we always encourage people to learn no matter what CMS they're going to go into. I mean, this is just fundamentals. And then just kind of web development fundamentals too. And so, I think we've got a really good base there.

Over the years, we've actually gotten some more intermediate to advanced classes, is what I would call them. And that's where we really dig in. Maybe with WooCommerce, the first section of it is probably pretty beginner. But then as we go along, we're going to get more and more advanced. And then we have maybe certain plugins where we really dig in and we show you that entire plugin, all the features of it. And that's where I kind of feel like you get into intermediate and into advanced.

Once you're looking at a plugin in total, that's what I call advanced because you're really actually digging in and saying, "Well, what does that button do? What does this button do?" And so, that's where we're heading to, is we're trying to add more of those intermediate to advanced because that's where we're really getting a lot of interest these days. People, because they've been with us for years and they've done the beginner and now they're like, "Ooh, that's really cool. What else do you have?"

Brad: Yeah. You have a background in training obviously and it's clear you're very passionate about it, which is great, but it's neat seeing the way that training actually compliments your agency side of the house, right?

Robbie: Yes.

Brad: Like you just mentioned, you have clients or people come in the door, they were handed a WordPress site. We see that too. A marketing associate or director, whatever is like, "Here's the site. Now, it's yours. Do something with it." And they're like, "I don't know what to do." So, it's very complimentary to what you're doing. And it's also offering, to your point, if there's only so many hours in a day, and you look in the agency space, it's like, "Well, there's only so many hours you have to work on stuff," but having something that's more of a... I wouldn't say a SAS, I guess, but more of an online... there's recurring revenue here, so you can make some money when you're asleep, which is always an amazing thing, in my opinion. So, very complimentary to the agency side of the house, which I think is super cool.

Robbie: Absolutely. And not only do we have the video courses, but we have books on there too. And that's where some people just prefer that. They prefer to have a book. And we also sell it on Amazon. If you want a printed version of it, you can get that too. A lot of the colleges, that's what they have, are the printed versions that they use in there.

And our beginner books also have complimentary video courses. So, that way, no matter what type of learner it is, whether they prefer to read a book or whether they prefer to watch a video or maybe they want a combination thereof because they want to take notes while they're watching the video and the book. I feel like we've got a good resource for either direction. And with the new website that we're going to launch, we're also going to start doing some webinars that we're really excited about. So, it'll be some live training, online live training is what I'll call that, webinars too that we're going to add into the mix. Just another way to get people to learn because we all learn differently.

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Bob: One of the questions I have around the training is... I talk to a lot of these WooCommerce builders and they're having troubles finding the training they're looking for. And I know the challenges that come behind that because I've done it myself.

So, I'm thinking you're at this crossroads where you're bringing along... let's take for example your WooCommerce training, where somebody is building. "Yeah, I want to learn more WooCommerce. I want to build." And then they get to that point where, "Okay, now, I'm decided I'm not just building my own site. I'm going to build for clients." So, there's this kind of break in the road where, yeah, they can go to the intermediate and advanced and learn and understand the plugins more or they can also mix in with that actually the development side of it, getting into the code and getting deep into that.

With that said, it sounds like your training is more focused on not that part of it. I'm just going to make an assumption here. And I may be wrong. But that seems like it's a challenge because you do have that kind of break where there's people saying, "Hey, it's great because I get all this training with this stuff, but that development stuff... " but then that, also getting into that seems like that's a real challenge to actually produce and train people on that because of... I mean, everything changes obviously, but that might even be a little bit more volatile.

Robbie: Right. And change is absolutely something that is always challenging in training, particularly technology. I mean, we know this. I mean, how many times do you update plugins every month? I mean, goodness gracious. So, imagine trying to have a training that's always 100% up to date. You're always going to be a little behind. It's just going to happen. So, that's another reason why you're kind of touching at... for the beginner, you're starting at a high level and going down with that because high level-wise, there normally aren't, until you get major revisions, there aren't big changes. It's more in the details. When you have a major revision though, that's when the whole thing has to be redone from scratch.

I mean, the Drupal 8 course that we have... And it's a huge course. I mean, it was 60-something videos for Drupal 8. Drupal 9 came out. So, we just redid the Drupal 9. It had to be done 100% from scratch. And this time, it was 80-something videos. It's a huge course. But it had to be done from scratch. And that's a lot of work. I mean, if you think about it because just to do the course, you've got to one, plan the project you're going to do, then you've got to break that project apart into sections as you're going along so you can provide the necessary resources that they need and stuff. And so, same thing. I mean, actually with WooCommerce, we're looking at a new revision right now that we're working on too. So, it's always something that's changing though. Always.

Now, we updated our WordPress Explained book last year. And we were able to actually just do a... we called it the 2020 version. So, we were able to actually just update. But it meant literally every screenshot in that book was replaced because there were visual changes. And so, that is always a struggle.

Now, to the first part of your question there, by the way, which was crossing that line where you go from, "I'm a user. Maybe I'm a beginner. Maybe I'm a intermediate. But I'm a user." Now, crossing that bridge, "I want to become an agency. I want to become someone who actually develops for a lot of other people." That is definitely different. And that is where we have those different focused courses like, "This is just focused on LifterLMS," or, "This is just focused on LearnDash." These are the focus courses. And that's where we see, when people start wanting to do that, they start going into those courses.

We also try to write blogs that we put out there. Those are just public consumption. And we try to give tutorials that answer some of those integration questions like, "Oh, I want to use WooCommerce with X." So, we try to do some tutorials where we show those type of integrations. That's the other thing too, in our new seminars we want to do, that is one of the things we want to cover is tying things together. "I can learn this. I can learn that. I can learn this. But how do they all work together?" And that's where I find that's where agencies become... that's where agencies make their niche. This is a huge ecosphere. I mean, so we all have our niches in those.

So, for years, we were Joomla and Fabrik. We have a real niche in that industry with my agency. And it's just something that we knew. And we became very good at that. And we knew how to tie it into all different types of things.

But even in the WordPress world, what do you do really great in the word? Are you good at membership sites? Are you good at training sites? Are you good at e-commerce sites? There are so many niches that we can be in. I mean, this is just a vast industry, actually. When you talk about web development, that's huge. That's a huge topic.

Brad: Yeah. that's a recommendation I know I make and I know a lot of people make, is if you're trying to break into the WordPress world or really any kind of platform, community or space, going into a niche is definitely going to be a much easier journey. If I was trying to start an agency today and say, "We do everything WordPress," that'd be a very tough hill to climb because so many people use WordPress. It's generic. Nobody knows me from anybody else. I'm a new company. Versus coming out and saying, "We do WordPress for very specific industries." It just makes marketing and talking about it, it just laser-focuses everything on what you're doing. And ultimately, you can carve out a little nice space, a very profitable space for you and start building from there. So, that's great advice.

Robbie: Yeah. So, with OSTraining, because we do have, like you said, we have all kinds of things. You want to go in there and learn how to use Drupal and WordPress and Joomla? Watch the basis on all of those, especially if you're new to web development and you're not even sure what you want to do yet. Go in there and watch different things. And you don't have to become a member of OSTraining. You could do this on YouTube. Go and look at the different solutions that are out there and pick one and say, "This is the one I'm going to now follow down and I'm going to learn." It doesn't mean you won't learn the others later on, but if you kind of learn one and you get really good at it, the same fundamental theory applies to all of them.

A content management system is a content management system. Even if you get into some of the very large corporate content management systems, they're literally still a database and some sort of code that's going to pull back and forth and display HTML in the end. I mean, there's fundamentals that you can apply. So, I always tell people, "Kind of look around. Think of it as you're an undeclared major. Look at different things. And then pick a major. Go after that major. It doesn't mean that can't minor in all the other things too."

Bob: And I think that developers sometimes, I've talked to them, and they seem to get to a point, especially in the beginning, they think that they're... they've learned the basics of WordPress and then it's like their mindset is, "I just got to dive into the back end and absorb the code." And I think some of them neglect a little bit, not all of them, but I'm going to say that they don't step back and think, "Okay, if I'm going to start doing membership sites, I should understand a few of these membership sites from the front end and just from the user aspect and then take that next step."

And they sometimes skip that step. Maybe not all of them do. And some of them that are listening may say, "No, I didn't do that." But others might be saying, "Yeah, I never really did that." They go back and do that at some point, which is fine too. I'm not a developer, but I look at it as you've got to understand there's other pieces there that you may think you can just make assumptions on and are easy, but you might want to at least go through that stuff and understand it more before you start taking those next steps and getting deeper into the code side of things.

Robbie: Absolutely. I mean, you really hit the nail on the head there when you said that they need to understand from the user's point of view. I always encourage people, "Make your client or your grandmother or someone, your mom, whoever. Have somebody sit down. Don't tell them what to do on that site. Don't tell them how they're going to get around. Just watch them. Just watch and see where do they click? Where are they confused?" I mean, you can learn so much from that. You just really can. I mean, I know there's all kinds of... you can do heat maps and things like this. Really, there's some diagnostic tools. But there is nothing like just sitting down and watching someone who would just be a regular internet user, is what I'll call them, and watch them try to navigate around your site that you've built.

And that's going to tell you a world of information. And then you've just got to go back and tweak it until it's easy enough that when someone gets there... I mean, when somebody gets to Amazon now, they have no problem ordering things. And that's years and years of tweaking to user surveys and seeing how people reacted. I mean, well, they had the money. They were putting people in rooms and monitoring exactly what they did on the site every time. So, they know how to tweak it.

And it's just, there's just so much you can learn, I feel like, from seeing people try to use websites. And then you can turn around and yeah, then maybe you can go, "Well, it would be better if I move things around this way. Maybe I need to learn some more code to be able to do that." But you're right, if you just dig in and you learn the code and you just build what you think, a lot of times you're going to have spent a lot of hours doing things that didn't work.

Brad: I love the user testing advice. And if for some reason, you don't have any friends or family, sorry, but there are services you could pay for too, which will do that. And they'll literally do what Robbie just described virtually. They'll record the screen. They'll record their voices. They're kind of talking out loud. And you're watching them interact. And there's some cheaper things like Crazy Eggs, another service we like on our site and for some of our clients, that will track just from the standpoint of the browser. You can actually see what the user's doing. We've learned some interesting things even on our site, where people were trying to click on something they thought was clickable and it wasn't. Just little things like that. But definitely in the e-commerce world, you could learn a lot with tools like that. So, 100% agree.

Robbie: Yeah. Absolutely.

Brad: So, one final question just around the training. I know you obviously work with a lot of different platforms, which I always think is super interesting. I'm curious what trends you've seen from that side because I'm definitely in kind of the WordPress bubble clearly. So, I know Joomla. I know Drupal. I used to build on those platforms years ago, but I haven't touched them in a long time. But I'm curious, obviously, we look at overall growth usage of WordPress and some of the other platforms on a global scale. That doesn't tell me a whole lot. I'm curious, from your perspective, are you seeing more people come in for WordPress? Does it kind of line up with overall market share? Is it more evenly split across the different platforms on your side? I'm just curious what kind of metrics or stats you might be seeing and what that might be telling us, if anything. I don't know.

Robbie: Yeah. So, the first part of your question is, do I see trends across them all, by the way. And I do because we go to a Drupal conference, Joomla conference, WordCamps. So, we're at the different events. And I always think it's interesting to see the communities. And so, I love seeing the communities. I feel like all the communities have some of the similar pains and celebrations amongst themselves though. I mean, you become great friends. You know everybody in the community. There also could become some spats that happen in amongst the community, as we know. And so, I see that though in all the communities. All of them have these, I'll call them growing pains, because every year you're growing a little bit. And so, they all have that.

As far as market share is, I mean, we can all go pull the stats on it. Obviously, WordPress is going to be the leader in those, as far as if we're looking at the percentages. That is the truth. And there's no denying that. And I definitely see that same metric on the training too, like how much training is viewed for WordPress or Drupal or Joomla. WordPress is the leader in that. I mean, they've just done a great job of hitting the right things to become that leader in the space.

Even though when it started out, it wasn't a CMS necessarily. It was a blogging platform. And then it became like a mini CMS. And at this point, I would call it a full CMS. But it evolved. They all, the others that you were talking about, they just started as CMSs. And WordPress had a lot of evolution. And I think that may be why there's a lot of excitement about it.

WordPress also is, we know, known as being the user-friendly. I mean, it's just easier. If you're going to turn it over to your client to make updates and changes, WordPress is a heck of a lot less intimidating than opening up Drupal and trying to explain to your client how to update a page on Drupal, right?

Brad: Right.

Robbie: So, there's that that I see. The other commonality is things like you'll see page builders become something that's across the... it'll be hot in one, so then it becomes hot in the others. I mean, even one of the classes we just did, guess what it was? Gutenberg for Drupal. So, yeah. There are trends and the trends move between the platforms and the communities. We see this. So, I think it's really interesting. And I really like that I'm involved in all these different communities. And I like seeing all the different things that happen amongst the communities. I think it's really cool.

And then I also deal with, have clients that are SAS products too out there. And so, seeing the way that they change their functionality even to match the way things are happening in the open source CMS worlds. So, there's a lot of trends that do match across all of these communities, whether they're open-source communities or whether they're commercial communities. And so, I think that's really kind of... it's cool. It's cool to see it from a higher-level view.

And then... oh, I'm sorry. Now, I've got to remember. What was the second part of your question? I got all excited about the whole trends amongst platforms.

Brad: I was just curious. It sounds like what you're seeing is what we're seeing. I didn't know if... and I guess what I was curious about is if platforms that are less popular than WordPress are actually seeing a tick up in training because there aren't as many resources out there. I'm sure in the world of YouTube and media and everything, if you compare WordPress training versus Joomla and Drupal, WordPress is going to blow them out of the water just because of how many people are using WordPress and how many people are making content around WordPress. So, I didn't know if maybe you saw Drupal and Joomla's actually higher because there is less content out there or not. But it sounds like your clients and students are kind of trending along like market share data as well, where WordPress is clearly dominant.

Robbie: Definitely. But we do obviously still see that we have a lot of Drupal and Joomla people because, you're right, there are a lot less places to find that training. A lot less. And a matter of fact, I mean, like we have Modic training. I mean, we've got some really kind of weird, off-the-wall training that other people don't have. And so, sometimes literally we have somebody come in just because they want this one certain class. I mean, we're pretty low cost. And so, it's worth it to them just to buy the whole membership to get that one class.

And then we also, again, trying to get towards that intermediate to advanced, some of our newest books, which we don't have video courses with yet, but we're working on that. But we have React Explained, Gatsby Explained, JavaScript Explained. And so, we've got some higher-end intermediate to advanced kind of stuff and more codie, that's what I'll call it, codie.

We are finding people come in sometimes just because they want the React book. They're like, "Oh yeah, I need that content." And so, because we have so much content, we see people coming in from all different spectrums and different communities and stuff. But obviously, the big three are WordPress Drupal and Joomla.

And I will say, actually Magenta does really well every month too. So, it's a good trender. Adobe bought them, so it's interesting to see how the community is changing slightly there. And we don't know what's on the horizon for it, but it still has a pretty good viewership, which I think is interesting.

Bob: Talking to somebody in training always makes me think back to 2009, when I did my first training tutorials membership type of thing. And then a few laters, did it a second time because the first time around, it really sucked. Second time, realizing that, when we were talking about keeping things updated, that it was far better to have other people do this, like OSTraining, WP 101, everybody else. So, I totally got out of that part of it. And so, it always rest assures me that I made the right decision.

Robbie: It's a lot of work. That is true. It's a lot of work. I mean, all of our instructors, they're very good at what they do. Most of our instructors actually do this as a living. They actually work in agencies or have agencies. And so, they are doing this. We're not just consuming some product to learn it to be able to regurgitate a course to you. We actually, these instructors, do this on a day-to-day basis. And so, you're actually, as you're going through, even from a beginner course, you're hearing someone who is probably advanced, that knows how to use this, has made money doing this. And so, we are really conscious of having our instructors, because they do know it, we want to make sure that they do pare it down to the user.

But the most important thing is we want them to make the user... or I mean, the user doesn't have to actually follow along, but we want them to do that because nothing makes learning more solid than doing. And so, following along and doing it yourself. Sometimes we'll have our clients, they'll come in and they'll watch the course. And then they'll watch it again, pausing it and doing it. You can see they watched it all the way through and now they're going back through because they want to actually now, step by step, do it with the instructor. And that's what we encourage. Most of our courses are designed for you to follow along and do it yourself at the same time. We try to set them up for, "This is what you need to do to get yourself set up at the beginning so that you can follow us along."

Bob: Yeah. Well, excellent. Want to wrap this up with give some people some options. Where can they connect with you? Obviously, you have a couple of sites they should connect with you, but also on social.

Robbie: Yeah. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter. I'm Robbie Adair. And I'm really pretty easy to find on all of those. As a matter of fact, if you Google, it's just like... if you Google "Robbie Adair", it's me and some soccer player up in Canada who has my name. But yeah, I'm on Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, you name it. I'm even in Clubhouse right now, but I rarely open it.

Bob: Excellent, Well, I want to just thank our sponsors one more time before we close out here. PayPal, our community sponsor. They have your clients covered with fraud and seller protection and a lot more with their streamlined commerce platform at paypal.com/business/solutions.

WP Activity Log, one of our pod friends. Allows you to show your clients what you've been working on during development and even maintenance. So, check it out at wpactivitylog.com.

And lastly, do check out the GoDaddy Expand 2021 Conference. It'll leave you motivated, inspired and ready to make that next build. April 27th through 28th. Events.godaddy.com.

And just one last little call-out here. Do check out our WooCommerce Builder events. Robbie is on our WooCommerce roundtable, where we actually have somebody from WooCommerce.com come in once a month and they get to grill that person, and that person gets to grill the panelist in turn. So, it's fun. You can hear her just going at it over there. And I'm really glad to have her onboard there as well. And yeah. So, that's it.

Thank you again, Robbie. Really enjoyed having you on.

Robbie: Thank you very much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. And it was a blast.

Brad: Yeah. Thanks so much. Great show.

Bob: All right, everybody. Well, until the next time, just keep Doing the Woo.