Outsourcing, Training and Community with Brad Morrison

Do the Woo - WooCommerce Podcast, Community and News
Do the Woo - WooCommerce Podcast, Community and News
Outsourcing, Training and Community with Brad Morrison
/

As the founder of GoWP, one of the leading outsourcing businesses in the WordPress space, Brad Morrison has his finger on the pulse of what is transpiring with both WordPress and WooCommerce.

The variety of services they offer, and the strength in both community and education, brings some excellent perspective of what is happening in the space around job opportunities and what is working with both agencies and their clients.

A Chat with Brad

Noelle and I chat with Brad about:

  • Brad’s path to WordPress and WooCommerce
  • How the growth of WooCommerce has affecting providing maintenance for agencies
  • What changes they have seen with their clients during the last 14 months
  • How the growth of Woo has affected the number of qualified devs and other professionals to meet the latest demand
  • What has inspired the growing demand, a burst in online stores or lack of individuals with the needed skills
  • Why they started a service called Landing Pages and how that has grown and morphed
  • How community and training has grown to be a much larger part of his business

Connect with Brad

Thanks to Our Pod Friends

Mindsize



Mindsize has helped individual stores handle hundreds of millions of dollars worth of orders. Their Site Performance Audit with ongoing monitoring and iterative performance improvements are key to help you optimize your next client project. Visit mindsize.com to learn more. 

FooSales


If you have a client who is looking for a point of sales solution, consider recommending FooSales. FooSales is the first native WooCommerce point of sale to support in-person payments using Square Reader. To learn more, check them out at foosales.com.

Bob: Hey everybody. Welcome back episode 134. Do the Woo. BobWP here and I'm back with Noëlle. Noëlle, how are you doing?

Noëlle: Hey Bob, I'm doing well. How are you?

Bob: Good. I hear you're kind of getting yourself a little... you're not. I mean, you're busy, but you're kind of busy in an organized sort of way. So things are kind of smoothing out a little bit for you.

Noëlle: Yes. And I'm getting more time to study, learn new languages, work on my website, all these kinds of things that fall by the wayside when things are going crazy. But yeah, I've been working on some awesome projects and it's always good to launch. Always such a great feeling but yeah. It's smoother for me on so I'm excited.

Bob: Cool. Well, that's good to hear. I know you were a little bit overwhelmed, which is always good. A lot of work, but you got some perspective going on here and some stuff you can do that you wanted to do well.This is a long overdue show. This is a exciting because I have a good friend of mine who has put up with me for a few years and continues to put up with me and I was glad he accepted this invite. Brad Morrison. Brad hey.

Noëlle: Hey Brad.

Brad: Hey Bob. Hey Noëlle. Thank you. Just so I'm excited to be here, so thank you so much and always a pleasure hanging out with you, Bob. Always.

Bob: Yeah. Well, we'll see how many more years that lasts, but we'll tick them off. I put it on the spot in my white board, how many years Brad puts up with me? So it's so far so good. Alrighty. Well, we're going to dive right into it. Brad, some of you may know Brad, some of you may not. And I typically ask people how they do the Woo, but you know, Brad kind of touches Woo with his business and touches a lot of other WordPress pieces. So just tell us a little bit about what you do and then we'll go from there.

Brad: So I am the CEO of GoWP and we are a company that supports digital agencies, specifically digital agencies that use WordPress and increasingly WooCommerce. So we kind of support them in three different ways: We handle staff augmentation for them. If a digital agency needs to add someone to their team, we also have outsourced services like WordPress maintenance and content edits and page builds. And then the third component, which over the last year has been really important, is having a forum or a place where digital agency owners can come peer network, where they can come and bounce ideas. They can have support during the pandemic. It was really important, but it continues to be important just to share ideas and grow together as a team. And so we have community and training set up around that specifically.

Bob: Cool. Now I don't know if I've ever heard that your story. I may have. And before we get into all these different things that you offer through GoWP, how did you get into WooCommerce? How did you get into the space?

Brad: So yeah.

Bob: Or I should say WordPress and then WooCommerce probably just natively came along.

Brad: That's right. Yeah. We were so... Gosh, I guess 2004, I started an agency and so from 2004 to 2014, we basically did agency work. So it was just me then I hired the first employee who was Lucas Karpiuk who's still with us now. That was 2009, I believe. And then we transitioned in 2014. We built the agency up. We built Joomla sites for the first four or five years and then somewhere around WordPress 2.8, 3.O, somewhere around that time period, we switched over to WordPress and it was one of those where you could see the writing on the wall. I had been building Joomla sites as a non-developer and I liked it because there were things that I could do. I was an implementer, I wasn't a developer, but I could build sites for small businesses.

Brad: I didn't quite... WordPress wasn't as easy for me to use as a non-developer in those early years, but you could see more and more people starting to use it. You could see the features, it kept getting better, faster than Joomla did at the time. And so I knew I needed a WordPress developer. We needed to move in that direction. And so I hired Lucas. He came on board and then we were purely a WordPress agency after that. And then what we did in 2014 was we decided to productize certain components of our agency. So we went from a service based business to a productized service built specifically at the time around maintenance and support.

Bob: Yeah. That's interesting, 2009, because I know I entered WordPress 2007. 2007 through about 2009, I swear there's so many people I know that jumped in at that time and I don't know if there was some, like you said, if there was some vibe or we all got some WordPress fever. I'm not exactly sure what the... But it was a time that everybody because I had an agency for 17 years prior to that. And I just made the switch too at that particular moment in time. So there was something in there.

Brad: Yes. I think it was... I mean, even things like adding menu items, right? That was easy. I could push buttons and easily do that in Joomla. That was harder to do in WordPress. And so during that time period, all of that became a whole lot easier. And then you had custom post types with, was that 3.0, maybe. So custom post types coming out. And so then it's like, whoa, WordPress is not just a blogging platform because that's kind of what everyone had said at the time, oh, WordPress is great for blogs but it's not good for a small business site. And then I think that's the time period that it was changing. It's very interesting.

Bob: Yeah. Yeah. I look back, it was horrifying. I went into way back machine and it wasn't working anymore, but my transition was primarily because I wanted to find something that I could make decent sites for people. WordPress was it because I was doing these weird HTML sites and my site when I actually made the transition to my first theme, which was from I theme to I themes for my own site. I had this one site and I wish I could actually have the live version of it because it'd be so hilarious, but I was using a flash or something and I had all the little words for each service, drop in the letters, one at a time and form, and then they would go over and shift around. I was just...

Brad: I want to see that.

Bob: It was horrifying. Yeah. I could have that because it would be such a horrifying experience for all of us to... This is like Bob pre-WordPress and it was bad. So I needed something desperately after that. Well, that's enough about me, but you have so many pieces to the puzzle and as far as what you offer, I know that probably maintenance is something you've been kind of in the game for quite a while. And maybe let's just start out with that and I think it will transcend into these other areas you do. I know we keep touching on the growth in the last year and a half in WooCommerce and ecommerce, and then even further back than that, but from the maintenance side of thing, what has really taken place over the last two, three years with you seeing more either ecommerce or specifically WooCommerce come into the space?

Brad: Yeah, it's definitely been a priority for a lot of the agencies that we work with are spending a core focus of a lot of the agencies that we work with. I mean, you see other full companies springing up to support WooCommerce. We've seen that on the maintenance side. So I will say, I was talking internally in preparation for this a little bit just to get the thoughts of our maintenance team on maintaining WooCommerce sites and their perspective was really interesting. There was a time several years ago, probably around the transition when Automatic bought Woo. Right? And so there was a time then where we wanted to run from WooCommerce sites. Really just maintaining and making it all work well together was hard work and on our model where we're a productized service and we're doing things at scale, when you introduce something that really needs to be very custom, it's hard. It kind of can break that model.

Brad: And so WooCommerce sites did not fit. We even had a separate WooCommerce plan to approach things manually and it slowed us down. It didn't fit in with the rest of what we do. What we've seen though is over the last couple of years, specifically the last year, it's been a lot easier to maintain. So it has like... I mean, we have really, there's not a lot of difference, whereas before it was, hey, what is your stack agency owner? What is your stack that you're using? Let's look at that. Okay. This might be a little bit of a challenge or we're going to have to do this a little bit differently or we're going to have to make an exception or we recommend you use our tool this way when we're maintaining these sites.

Brad: We don't have to do that with, with WooCommerce anymore really. We consider it another plugin and we're able to just do what we do in maintaining WordPress sites with WooCommerce. And so we're seeing a lot less troubleshooting because things aren't breaking as much and we're not finding the issues that we used to find just updating WooCommerce and related WooCommerce extensions, which is great. And so the team, it was interesting just talking to the team about it. They're like, yeah, that's not really a problem anymore. And I don't think that we had really had sat back to look at that and thought about it and it's not the same, it's much easier to maintain. So it's definitely more mature, which is amazing.

Noëlle: Yeah. And I personally can't wait to see where it goes in the upcoming time. I mean, I feel like it's so rapid now like we're going to be seeing some awesome changes and the elements that are coming with 5.8 and all that. Yeah, it's quite amazing. I mean, for me, if I look back eight years ago, because my first site was a WooCommerce site and I can just say just in terms of documentation and being able to find solutions online or find people to have conversations with and it's just nowadays it's so much easier. Back then it was really blood, sweat, and tears and this is not even as long ago. So I'm really curious. I mean, you've said that the demand for WooCommerce support has been increasing and I can imagine. I mean, I've heard coronavirus has had an impact on so many businesses. How did the needs of your clients change during that time?

Brad: Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. It was so interesting early on because there was a lot of fear. There's a lot of uncertainty. So specifically talking about maybe March through June of last year. We saw a dip during that time. For example, we had a large vacation rental company that had many, many sites with us and they were cutting, cutting, cutting because it's like no one's going to be taking vacations during this time. And what's funny is look at how that has flipped over the second part or second and third part of the last year where people are actually taking vacations. And if it can be a socially distant where you feel safe, that's exactly what it is. And so people are looking for that.

Brad: And so we saw a brief dip, but then it's crazy the growth for a lot of our customers specifically ones that are supporting online shops. So ecommerce businesses, it has been a really good time over the last year from a business standpoint, not to get into the social side and all of the other issues that have happened with the pandemic. But from a digital agency owner standpoint, there has been no shortage of business. Digital agencies have really been growing during this time. Everyone was a little bit uncertain and scared at the beginning, but people shifted dollars to online and people got more comfortable working remotely and we've seen it across the board. So our business in turn has really grown during the pandemic. We've hired multiple people and it's been positive from a business standpoint, which is at least one bright spot in this rough, rough time we've had over the last year.

Bob: In reflection of that on your side of things, have you been able to find qualified people in the Woo space? Has that grown too or do you feel also that you're getting a lot of people and maybe you don't have an exact direct touch to this but a lot coming to you that yeah, I'll do WooCommerce, but how long you've been doing it? Well, since last March. Because he kind of jumped on, as a developer, they jumped on the bandwagon and I know you have your dedicated developers that you source out to agencies and stuff. Has that demand that you've had been met through finding people to fill those spots?

Brad: Yeah. It is harder. It is harder to find qualified. I mean, I think we see that even just globally in across many different industries right now. It's hard to find staff. It, just. Is WooCommerce specifically, the skill set when we're doing staff augmentation and we're placing a developer on someone's team, it depends on what they're doing. So let's say they're not working with WooCommerce. Maybe they're not even doing a whole lot of custom development there. They're doing a lot of build outs with Divi, Elementor, beaver builder, a page builder, increasingly Gutenberg. And Oxygen, there's more. I could go on and on with the list of page builders that people are using. And so finding qualified folks that can jump into an agency and follow their processes and do things the way they do, it's not easy, but we've done a good job of finding, recruiting and vetting and testing and onboarding and training and doing all of that. It's worked out well.

Brad: When you move to a little bit more advanced skillset, right? So let's just say it was a pure backend developer that needs to do plugin work. That's been very difficult. It's been very difficult to find that.WooCommerce is a little bit of a hybrid, right? You're looking for someone who has good front end skills. You're looking for someone that also is competent on the backend as well. You may be building a well commerce site, but you're integrating it with other vendors or you're doing things that are more PHP, My SQL, it's not just front end development. And so it's somewhere in between, right?

Brad: We are having success in finding those candidates and bringing them on and placing them but it is a more advanced skill set and it is more difficult. It's very different than when we posted jobs in the past, you could have 200 applicants out of the gate very quickly. We're having to recruit. We're having to do a little bit more of building a network, building in-roads, hiring recruiters in specific areas with specific qualifications and background to be able to find the right developers that our digital agencies need. So yes, it is definitely more difficult and I don't see that letting up anytime soon. I think that will continue to be. Which if you have training along with this, then you're able to bring someone in that might have that core page builder experience and then train and over time.

Brad: And the great thing with what we do when we're doing staff augmentation and done for you outsourced services, we have a way to give developers hands-on experience with, I think page builds that we're working on, with maintenance that we're working on. So if they're not able to get that from the digital agency placement, they're able to get that from our outsources services so we can do that. But you build people up and say, hey, this is a growing field, agencies are asking for this more and more, they need this, they're building a lot of WooCommerce sites. Let's invest some training to be able to get you to support them.

Bob: Yeah. So is that as a result of there's been a growing demand online or is it the lack of individuals having those skills or is a mix?

Brad: Yeah, I think it's both. I mean, you don't have to go too far back for it to be new to have someone that is purely a WordPress developer, right? I'm just a dedicated WordPress developer, this is what I do, right before that it might be a front end developer. It might be a backend developer. It might be a full stack. It might be, hey, we've dealt with things and I can do WordPress because I've built PHP applications or I've built whatever. And so over the last few years, if you have a strong group of dedicated WordPress developers, they've done nothing but WordPress and they've done it for a decade in some cases, right, or more. With WooCommerce, it's even newer than that. Right? So it's still an emerging, so there's not a robust labor supply yet. It's just not comparably looking at it across tech.

Brad: So I think more of that will happen. I do think that the growth of it has exceeded the growth of the labor supply for dedicated WooCommerce developers. And I think over time with training, it will continue to kind of catch up hopefully, but it's not tomorrow. It's going to be... And I think we have to be intentional about getting people into the field and intentional about training up skill sets to be able to meet that need. And not just go to repeat that. That's across the board, that's in the WooCommerce and in the WordPress space.

Bob: On the landing page builds, how long have you had that service about?

Brad: We're probably at, gosh, about a year and a half. Yeah. I think November, December will be two years on that.

Bob: Yeah. Where does the demand for that primarily come from as far as... It's in wide open space. I mean, you could think of landing pages on an ecommerce site versus landing pages on other call to action or just products, single product pages. Where has that demand been? And has that shifted in a or is that growing in a certain area?

Brad: It is. I can tell you why we introduced it, which might help. So we have our maintenance and then we have our content edits, which is us making those quick, half hour, 30 minute tasks that we're doing on a site. What we found is that so many agencies are using page builders to build out sites. They're not using custom themes. They're not using... They're building out sites from scratch in page builders. So, where's the line between adding three new rows of content, so editing content on a page using Elementor for example, versus, hey, could you build this page out for me? Right? So here's the design, here's what we want. It's still, you're kind of editing content. You're adding a new page. So the line, it just takes a little bit longer, right? It takes more time to build that page out.

Brad: So we did not want to have this hard line to say, well, your 30 minutes is up because it's the same skill on our side. So we have folks that can do that, we just needed to have an option to kind of expand the scope of what we're doing when someone says build this. So that was the original intention of it. Have a new plan that people can go to if they do want pages built constantly, because we saw an increase in people wanting to have dedicated landing pages for different ads that they're running different sales pages for online courses, whatever they were doing, they wanted to be able to quickly build different landing pages. And so we expanded that and did that. Then we kind of turned that into a little bit more of, all right, I want to build a new site and I've got homepage, I've got services page, I've got about us. I've got whatever, five different kind of templates that I want. Can you do that with the page build service, the landing page build service?

Brad: And so we're like, it wasn't really the intention, but we can give that a try. Let's see how that works. And that actually led into the dedicated developer offering. That's how this evolved. So there has been a little bit of cannibalization from the dedicated developer to the landing page, because you have so much more freedom with a dedicated developer that's building pages out, they can do project work, they could do maintenance, they could do a number of different things for the agency instead of just the actual page builds. So yes, it has increased, but all of the services we offer kind of work together and sometimes someone goes from here to there and that works out.

Brad: But I do think landing pages specifically, people don't want to use a third-party service for that. They don't want... Like WordPress, if they have a WordPress site, they want to be able to quickly build landing pages on the WordPress site. So yes, we have seen an increase in that. We feel a pretty needed service in the space specifically because we deal with digital agencies that want to be able to spin those up quickly.

Noëlle: Yeah. That's also what I'm seeing with my clients that will just, after a site is built, they will often request extra pages especially that are advertising specifically, like one optimized for this query, one optimized for that one, A/B split testing and so on. So I've also noticed increased demand for that. Yeah.

Brad: How do you right now charge for that? Basically, you quote them for building another page out or do you have like... Have you productized that in any way or do you just hourly based on the amount of work you're doing?

Noëlle: I have shifted. I used to always quote flat rates, but that ended up not really working out for me. What I've been enjoying more now is clients that say like, okay, we'll do 50 hours a month so I had a bit of a discounted rate versus my regular hourly rates. And they just make all the requests they want whether it's at a functionality, whether it's a landing page, whether it's maintenance that needs to happen, just all is in those hours and weekend sometimes the just is needed. But yeah, but that was quite well, quite smoothly, minimal admin, that sort of thing.

Brad: Yeah. I love that. There's so much administrative when you start quoting back and forth, but being able to kind of reduce the friction and just say, hey, you've got a set number of hours and they can request whatever they want, whether it's WordPress, WooCommerce, landing page, whatever it is. It's a good route to go. Cool.

Bob: Yeah. This reminds me because I'm kind of at an interesting point with my site looking at specific pages that need to be redone, redesigned and then how that affects other pages. And you don't think of landing pages as these pages that are specific to the needs that you have, they may be about pages, they might be archived pages, whatever. And having that kind of service available where you can tell somebody, go in and take care of these pages. So I really love that idea.

Brad: Yeah. And I'll say too like a talented front end developer that has some design experience, we have seen... I'll just mentioned like Dennis on our team, for example, we've been doing that even with the GoWP website is he's so good at not just front end development, but also he's a designer and he's good with design. And so with that one individual, he's able to kind of take that and say, you know what? Let's do this a different way. Your content is here, but let's do this, let's present that in a different way. Let's change the menu structure and so it's a great balance between the design and the code needed to get it to look the way that he and we envisioned, which is neat. So again, multiple ways to do it. You could have a dedicated service where you're paying someone like Noëlle to kind of say, hey, I want to do that. You could bring a dedicated developer in to do that. There's a number of different ways to accomplish it.

Bob: Cool. Well, I do want to touch on what you said now is this piece has grown exponentially over the last I don't know. I don't think you said timeframe, but the community and training. Can you just talk a bit about that? Just kind of introduce us how that has all built up and how that has become a bigger part of your business.

Brad: Yeah. It's interesting when you think about why you're in business in the first place, right? To have a healthy business, yes, you have to be driving revenue, you have to be profitable. I always say we feed a lot of mouths at our company and we help the customers that we work with, we support them as well. And that's in our interest. This sense of community and belonging and having this peer group and having it, to me, that's kind of the difference between enjoying what you do and not enjoying what you do. And so community has always been so important and we are in an industry that can be very isolating in a lot of ways, right?

Brad: We were remote. Most of us are remote, some have offices, but we're remote. But there are a lot of freelancers and micro agencies in the WordPress world that don't have the support of a full team. I've been there. For several years, it was just me. And then it was just me and it was Lucas. And then it was like small. So as a digital agency owner and where we were, which was a midsized city, other people that did web were really our competitors and there were three or four other and so I didn't have a peer group there to say, hey, how do you handle bookkeeping? Who do you use for your attorney? All the things you need to grow a strong business. And so it's always been important to me and it really wasn't until we transitioned to GoWP that I sought some of these communities out and got the support that I needed for us to build what we've built.

Brad: And I mean, specific shout out WPElevation and Troy Dean, which is a fantastic community. And I had Troy in as a coach and we did... The peer group within WP Elevation has just been over the years, so fantastic. But I could go on ..... Lee Jackson with Agency Trailblazer, Kyle Van Duesen with the Admin Bar. There's a number of different communities online that give people that kind of peer support that really helps in an industry that can be very isolating and lonely. So that's good. So we knew if we're supporting digital agencies and we know that need is there and I've experienced that myself and it also, it makes the difference between a happy place to work and one that might not be as happy and fulfilling, let's build that into what we're doing because that's important.

Brad: And so we've done that. We have the WP Niche Agency Owners Facebook group which is really the core of everything we do with the community. During the pandemic, we kicked off... We just heard from our agencies, I just want to see people, I just want to talk to people because I can't go... I'm remote here and I can't go out and be around people. So we kicked off our Friday, what we call happiness hours, which is a Friday happy hour where we just come together, agency owners and other folks that work with agency owners, we come together and we hang out and we share our wins and we share our struggles. And we sometimes have a topic that we'll kick off and say, let's talk about this type of tool this week or this type of how... You handle bookkeeping, whatever it is. Right?

Brad: And so we have that and it's been so great that as things kind of opened back here a little bit in the US, we've continued that and we will continue that because we've seen that there's a need that we're filling. And we'll continue to do more in that area because again, with the mouse to feed, right, it helps our agency owners be stronger financially. It helps them grow and become more profitable by giving training that they need to grow their business. So that's why we have people like Jennifer Bourn on to go through a webinar and teach one aspect of things. It's like we bring people in so that we can focus on that and build up the agency so that they can do better at what they do, which in turn helps us grow as well. And it's a win all around.

Bob: Noëlle, you're a single agency. Do you have anything to add to that, just your own experiences and what community has meant to you and how it's helped you?

Noëlle: Yeah. I keep saying, hey, if it wasn't for the community, I would definitely wouldn't be here. Yeah, because from the beginning, I mean, it started out with un-technical me eight years back, maybe almost nine years back, now trying to figure stuff out and going table rate shipping, a super complex setup and my first website and I wanted to bash my head against the wall and I'm like, well, what am I going to do? It was so hard, so hard. And also being in a small South African town with a two MB per second connection didn't help with my patience at a time. But yeah, finding Facebook communities in the spaces like WordPress and DV related Facebook community, especially I think, yeah, I think first, it was like DV once and it just makes a world of difference because I felt these people understood me and they were generally really kind. I'm like, wow, this is amazing.

Noëlle: These are experienced, experienced people that are taking time out of their day to help me for free, for the sake of community and helping each other. That was an amazing experience for me. It is something completely new and through the years, I mean, now I'm in a position where I can actually put back into the community which is really wonderful, but I still remember what it's like to kind of feel lost. I really felt that finding a community just helped me. Deep Dive helped me feel more secure on what I did, stimulated me to learn new things. Peers would share hey, have you seen this cool thing? And then from there, it's a rabbit hole. A good rabbit hole though.

Brad: It's so like having someone that has been there, right, that has experienced something and learning from them. And we're in this community. All of this is so built into WordPress too, which is great with WordPress Meet. I mean, community is so important with WordPress, right? I think that has made the difference in a successful open source project and all of the other CMSs and ecommerce. Look at even other ecommerce systems why they die and WordPress thrives is because of the strong community that's around it. And just being able to learn from people that have been where you are now. So that's something that I talk sometimes with Chris Lemma about, because I've learned so much from him because a lot of the things that I'm going through now in building the business, he has been there before and just being able to lean on the generosity of others, which there's so many generous people in the WordPress and WooCommerce space, is really incredible.

Bob: And with community, hand-in-hand and there's that empathy, where you said everybody that's experienced something. I don't find myself in large groups talking as much, but I have a lot of single one-on-one conversations with people that just reach out and they'll get going and I'll say I was there eight years ago and I still can feel for you because... And here's where I really screwed up. And here's where I finally got it or something. So the fact... I mean, transparency is great and not everybody has to go on and talk about their failures, but also at the same time, I was just on a chat. I think it was a podcast. We were talking about membership sites. And when they kind of became annoyed, I said my first membership site was in 2008 that I built before membership sites ever think really became a membership sites. Maybe that's why it didn't last.

Bob: But I spent nine months building this thing out of headway theme, using the headway theme and wishlist, that was a membership available. It took me nine months to build it and it took me one month to close it down. It was like-

Noëlle: Oh no.

Bob: There was a lesson learned there and there's a lot of lessons learned in that one, which I never regret. My wife and I both decided duty beast. One day we were... We did it a month into it and it was really strange because in the evening we looked at each other and I said, do you like doing this membership site? She said no. And I said, I don't either. So we had a few members by then and I just gave them their money back and basically said, I'm flipping the switch on this sucker and moving on so.

Brad: You learn so much through that though. I'll tell you someone from the other side, with your experience, Bob, like you and I. I mean you have... It's the experience like that that helps someone like me that doesn't know much about podcasting and audio and community building and you and I have had conversations every step of the way during that and your successes, failures, but your willingness to be able to pass that knowledge on to someone like me is just incredible. So thank you for that, so.

Bob: Oh yeah. Feel more than welcome. You learn so much through those and I've told people how many different things I do the WordPress, just my WordPress career that I've started and shut down and you just don't wallow in it. You just got to move on and yeah, it can be tough at times, but. Anyway, well, I knew this would be wonderful. I knew getting Brad on, it's long overdue and I can vouch for the group he has and the Friday chat they have. If you are a business out there, a small business and an agency, yeah, get on there because there's a lot of people there that are experiencing what you have experienced just like you'd said, and the conversation is great and you'll probably walk away with tons of resources and ideas each time. And so I highly encourage anyone that is in that space to go check it out. So yeah, speaking up, where can they find this again? I mean, let's just reiterate it and then if they want to reach out to you anywhere, where's the best place for them to do that?

Brad: Yeah. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate it. So it's a good group and a fun community. The Facebook group is a great place to start. So the GoWP Niche Agency Owners on Facebook, that's probably the number one we're doing now. All of our training and everything is really within that. If outside of that, Twitter ImBradMorrison. I'm not extremely active on Twitter, but it is a good way to send a DM and reach out. Send me an email, brad@gowp.com is another good way to get in touch. And then our website gowp.com if you want to talk to someone else on the team, then there'll be able to kind of help you and explain some of any of the services that we offer. But that's generally the best way to get in touch.

Bob: Perfect. Alrighty, well, everyone, thanks for joining us. Just like to give a shout out to our pod friends, FooSales and Mindsize, go check them out at foosales.com and mindsize.com. You heard all about them midway through the show and yeah, appreciate all my pod friends and all my friends support. GoWP is a community friend and I certainly have appreciated Brad support over the years as well. So that's it for now. And one more time, just wanted to thank you so much for joining us Brad.

Brad: Thank you both for having me. I appreciate it. It's been a pleasure.

Noëlle: Thanks so much Brad. Cheers guys until next time.