Hooking WooCommerce into Warehousing with David Baumwald

Do the Woo - WooCommerce Podcast, Community and News
Do the Woo - WooCommerce Podcast, Community and News
Hooking WooCommerce into Warehousing with David Baumwald
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When it comes to running a warehouse, the challenges are numerous. When you are integrating it with WooCommerce, well, there are so many variables that it should not be taken lightly. David Baumwald has been a developer and working in eCommerce for the last 17 years. And his specialty is integrating WooCommerce into warehousing.

But it doesn’t end there. As a full stack developer he has a wide range of experiences including his work in WordPress core, and being release lead (triage) in 5.3, 5.4 & 5.5. In other words, David has been there, done that. And to top it all off, he started using WooCommerce when it was in Alpha.

A Chat with David

Brad and I talk with David about:

  • Post-WordPress eCommerce and moving towards WooCommerce
  • How he created his speciality in the warehousing component of WooCommerce and what led to that
  • The challenges of working with warehousing and how those have changed over the years
  • Where developers and store owners should go for this type of setup with WooCommerce
  • How headless plays into the work David does with WooCommerce
  • How David has learned the importance of understanding WordPress core when developing with WooCommerce
  • The journey to a release lead on WordPress core
  • Why hard earned experience from clients has led the way for David
  • The incredible passion that David has for Christmas lights (he is often called the Christmas Light King)

Connect with David

See Davids Christmas Lights:


Thanks to our Pod Friends

OSTraining
Yoast

Bob: Hey everyone, Bob WP and Do the Woo episode 116 with my partner in crime, Brad Williams. Hey Brad, how are you doing today?

Brad: Hey Bob. I'm good. How are you doing good.

Bob: Good, are you getting settled into your new place?

Brad: Yes, I'm coming live from my new house.

Bob: Wow.

Brad: I think this is the... actually I know this is the first podcast at all that I've done in my new house. So one, hopefully the internet holds out and everything works, but it's exciting, I got a different view out my window and been picking up a lot of boxes and moving them lately, so, it's nice to take a bit of a break from that, I can tell you that much.

Bob: All righty. Well, I should have just opened up, live from Brad's new house, it's Do the Woo. Anyway, that would have been, yeah, real exciting, huh? Anyway, let's go ahead and dive in because we have a great guest talking a lot about, well he's a full stack developer, so you know what we're going to be talking about here and there and everywhere.

But before I do that, let me just thank our two pod friends, OSTraining, if you need to give your clients more confidence in running their Woo shop, they have a great collection of WooCommerce tutorials that will help them get the most out of their site. And as a builder, you will find a lot of training there as well to enhance your knowledge. And I know on the developer side of Woo, they're going to be even adding more training. So visit them at ostraining.com.

And our second pod friend Yoast, you know Yoast, I know Yoast, I've had experience, we've all had experience with them, and Yoast SEO and WooCommerce is a great combo if you're serious about your store, it's in the top 10 most downloaded WordPress plugins worldwide. And if you head over to yoast.com it will result in driving more traffic to either your client's site or your own Woo shops.

So those are our pod friends, like to thank them and I was going to ask David, our guest, how to pronounce his last name just for I wouldn't butcher it, but I'm going to do it on the chance that I get it right, we have David Baumwald.

David: Perfect.

Bob: Right. It was not too hard, I mean, I think my odds were pretty good with me there, but I have a tendency even make the easiest screw ups, so how are you doing today, David?

David: I'm well, and you'd be forgiven if you mispronounce it, because I go by David B. in WordPress Core, to make it easy for everybody.

Bob: Cool. Yeah, I know, that's why I did the BobWP years ago, I figured.

Brad: It's so much easier than Dunn.

Bob: Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's such a hard one to, except there is Dunn and Dune.

So David, how do you Do the Woo?

David: I Do the Woo by helping medium, small, large size E-commerce outfits connect their business processes with their website, whether that's automating, whether it's reporting, analytics, you name it, I'm involved pretty much throughout the entire stack in customizing whatever a business comes to me with. I have a saying that I never told a client no, as long as they can describe what they want me to build on the back of a big enough check.

Bob: Perfect, and we have a lot to talk about, but before we do that, I know you've been doing web stuff for quite some time from our previous conversation before the show, can you in a nutshell, maybe it can be done in a nutshell, but kind of give us how you got into WordPress and ultimately WooCommerce, I don't know if that was the order, but just a little bit of background there.

David: Sure. So actually I started in E-commerce, which I realize is somewhat weird. I know there's other people out there that have a similar path to me, but probably 16, 17 years ago now I worked on a friend's website, knew nothing, and it used what they call it OSCommerce. And that used to be the go-to E-commerce solution online. To the point where when you logged in to see panel, it was one of the first five pre-install apps.

It's now a legacy type thing, but I was heavily involved in that community for all of the 2000s. And it stagnated, and the developers rested on their laurels and it really was huge. And actually there are still some rather large names that you would know that are still running this behind the scenes. It's sad, but at the same time it works.

So I've been working on E-commerce for that long, and then what happened is I got outsourced or contract work for a WordPress site, was actually for the American Egg Board was my first WordPress site, I don't know if you remember those commercials from the 90s, the incredible edible egg?

Brad: Yeah, I remember those.

David: That's them, that's them, and their website was awful and we did it in WordPress and that was my first exposure to WordPress back in, I want to say 2011 or no, no, no, that had to have been 2009. Then my first exposure to WooCommerce was actually, I will call it a personal health brand, and actually this was to the point where it was a WordPress site and they wanted to add E-commerce and WooCommerce was alpha, it was not even beta when I tried this. And the reason I settled on it was because of the client had a requirement to integrate Google checkout, I don't know if you guys remember that, but that was a thing.

And WooCommerce was the only one that handled it out of the box at the time. And my WooCommerce work brought me in to WordPress Core because I realized that underneath WooCommerce is WordPress, and yes, you can rely on a lot of WooCommerce stuff, but sometimes there's things that are abstracted that don't need to be, and you could utilize a lot of WordPress Core stuff underneath. But there's a lot of great things in WooCommerce that add to WordPress Core like Action Schedule, I use that a ton.

But nevertheless, that pretty much led me to WordPress core a few years ago, been contributing here and there, and then 5.3 in WordPress core, I got picked up as a release lead by Josepha, me and Francesca Morano kind of have the shared journey together. I did 5.3, 5.4 and 5.5 and then helped behind the scenes mentor the 5.6 and 5.7 release. And then recently was named a core committer by Matt. So I'm very excited about that, but I hope that sums it up.

Brad: Yeah, that's cool. And congrats on being a core committer, I mean, you definitely got to put in a lot of hard work and kind of earn that trust in that place within the community, right, so, that speaks for itself. So congrats and thanks for everything you do from contributing to WordPress and open source, it's come a long way with your help for sure, I think I love talking to people like you that have a long history with E-commerce, because I mentioned on the show, but prior to starting WebDev, I too was in the E-commerce world as a director of IT at a large E-commerce company.

Brad: So while the web was what I was hired in for, and was my focus, quickly became the classic IT guy that something's broken, its technology, you must be able to fix it, right? So, I quickly got involved in the warehousing side and systems, which were a very new area for me, I didn't know much about it, I was in the website side of the house. But clearly there is the whole warehousing side, so when an order comes in, we would have to send it out to the warehouse, the warehouse would have to pick it, ship the order, that information had to get back into our system, it was all cut very custom when I started, imagine mid 2000s there weren't a ton of amazing platforms that you could just spin up quickly like there are today, so.

And you also have a pretty extensive history in the warehousing side of this. So that's why I thought we could kind of dig in a little bit, because I think it's a very interesting topic around WooCommerce is that warehousing. And one you don't hear mentioned often, or often enough primarily because it's stores of a certain size that are going to need a warehouse, right?

At the end of the day, if you're a mom and pop store, probably don't need a warehouse shipping products, right? At least until things get very successful. Good problem to have, if you've got to get into a warehouse, but it opens up a ton of challenges. So I'm curious from your experience, you are using WooCommerce, and one of your specialties is the warehousing component, how that hooks into WooCommerce, so people can run WooCommerce and still have a properly and efficient running warehouse, is that right? I'm I understanding that correctly.

David: Absolutely. Yeah. I lean heavily on, depending on the project, either the WordPress Core REST API or the WooCommerce REST API. Sometimes custom stuff can sit in front of that, it just depends, but yeah, it's integrating whether it's WooCommerce or OS Commerce or something custom or Craft Commerce, which is another one that's kind of rising, Shopify, it doesn't matter.

We're actually pretty lucky these days that we can, probably several years ago when we started this whole decoupled setup where we could kind of make the front end agnostic as to what was running on the backend, in terms of the whole REST API revolution and whatnot.

So whereas back in the day I was running, everything was viewed on a webpage on a big desktop that was connected to a computer, these days the employees of the warehouse are running around with little mobile devices that are handheld and everything is self-contained. And those include, most of time either laser or optical barcode scanner to interact with inventory, packing slips for orders, emails from customers, or they bring in their mobile phone and they scan to say, okay, I'm here to pick up my order, this sort of thing.

Brad: Yeah, it's really cool technology when it works well, it is insanely frustrating technology when it often does not work well, and I would assume it's still similar today than it was even 10 or 15 year ago with some of these challenges?

David: The challenges are there, they're just different, they hide behind a different mask, which is now the hardware problems are still there, it's just a different hardware problem. Now you're dealing with, there are only a couple of companies that make these handheld devices, either Honeywell or Motorola Zebra, Symbol, they're all one company now. And the challenge there is you have clients, they jump in and they buy these devices thinking, oh, this is going to be great, and then not realize that, oh Lord, this is running Android five or six, and it doesn't have a latest version of Chrome that needs to be able to talk to the keyboard events, API to where we can read a barcode scan from the optical scanner. It's just different.

Whereas back in the day we had these, like I said, these individual base stations with a little pistol grip barcode scanner that sat on the charger, that was connected to a dedicated server, that server had a monitor and they would have to open a dedicated webpage, and of course since JavaScript and jQuery were just nascent, there wasn't a lot of interactivity, it was all page refreshes and popups and just awful.

So it has come a long way, I'd still take today over yesteryear, but the hardware challenges are still there, And I would say it's even more critical today to engage someone of expertise before you start making any decisions about hardware, warehouse layout, how you deal with returns, these are huge questions that have implications that if you decide to change them later on, they are massive undertaking.

Brad: Yeah, I remember another thing, if you're not familiar with warehousing systems, you can imagine it's one of those areas where as you peel back the onion, David, which is some of what you're touching on, but you start to peel back the onion and it can get very complex quick. And it's one of those things you can always improve on. So imagine all the orders for the day are going out to the warehouse in real time, someone picks up a gun to go scan the products and pack all those orders essentially. Well, there's a whole algorithm and process to the efficiency of how that person walks up and down the aisles of the warehouse. If they have to go to one end to get one product and back to the other end to gets a second one, and back and back, you can imagine how that is insanely inefficient versus starting at one side, picking random products across multiple orders, working their way through the warehouse in a logical order, back to the shipping station.

So those type of challenges are one of the reasons why this stuff always fascinates me, because as a developer, this is algorithm type stuff, right? Can we give that picker, that person, the most efficient path to the warehouse to get the products, maybe it's based on how fast those products need to ship, if somebody orders something that's next day, you don't want it to get picked at the end of the day, right? You want to make sure that it gets picked immediately, so it can get on the truck that day and get out the door, so.

I mean, how have you come? Some of these things that, again, you kind of peel back, I gave one example, there's million other examples, but how are these being addressed I guess with today's technology? Is this stuff existing within WooCommerce or are we now outside of WooCommerce and kind of bolting on third-party services or other services that can help with that, or what's your recommendation as an expert in this field for the past couple of decades around how from a high level, and I know everybody's situation is a little bit unique, like you said, you can sit down and really map this out, but at a high level, where do you generally recommend people go with this type of setup with WooCommerce specifically?

David: If there's one piece of advice I could give, it would be to not actually integrate too tightly with WooCommerce or WordPress Core or whatever you're using, I would extend those to just be essentially providers of data. Of course going back to your example of, let's say what we call a priority order. When you've got, after WooCommerce, after order process, or you hook into the checkout processing hook and you assign an order priority and it can be based on a multitude of things, not just the shipping, it could be based off of, okay, which warehouse is this product in? How close is it to the client?

Based on our historical data of our actual delivery times for a given shipping provider and method, which, again, this is all things that we log in analytics, I don't want to call it machine learning because there are people that know they've forgotten more about machine learning than I have, but it's essentially the same idea, you just collect as much data as you can. You look at it and you make better decisions. You kind of pre-stage decisions based off of an expected data set. So customer comes in and they say, okay, I need it in two days.

Well, the nearest warehouse is in New York, the customer is in Nevada, and it needs to... so it needs to go next to air, if the cutoff time for these orders is 3:30 PM, that warehouse, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It literally is an onion like you described.

But going back to the advice, absolutely just stick with what WooCommerce can do well, which is be a data provider, and if you're making plugins that are integrating with some front end app, that the warehouse employees are interacting with, then if you change datasets and whatnot, it's not going to necessarily affect the front end app, the front end app would have to be adapted and vice versa. They're not very strongly tied together to where you introduce something on one end and it has to be accounted for on the other. They can be somewhat independent.

Brad: Yeah, I think that's great advice, I love that type of setup, and it's very topical right now, right? Headless decoupled, we're doing a lot of it at Web Dev, it's a pretty hot topic right now, and the benefits on the E-commerce side are huge.

David: Even more than WordPress Core.

Brad: Yeah, I would agree. And there's even, I know there's other commerce platforms, basically, that is their offering, is they are headless, I know Bold Commerce is a similar one where they're all about, we're headless, we're decoupled, we're not going to disrupt your current site, which is actually an interesting angle. It is less... depending on the setup, there's always the caveat of your situation, but it could be less risky introducing maybe a new commerce platform on the backend.

And like you said, if your front end is already hooked up, right? You could even have two commerce platforms, it might be a little crazy to do that, but you could, right? Just like you could have WordPress and another CMS pumping data into the same front end, right? It's the same type of setup, there's probably some use cases of why that would make sense on the E-commerce side, I can't think of lots out my head, it sounds a little crazy to me.

But just the theory, the idea of being able to do stuff like that sometimes at the very least you could say, Hey, this is having a decoupled setup makes it less risky if we ever did want to switch platforms, we could stand up a WooCommerce while we wind down our other platform, and it just pushes into that, that decoupled front end. So, I think the possibilities of headless commerce are just astronomical, I think it just really opens the door for so many cool things.

David: Yeah. And one project that I'm keeping a very close eye on, and I don't know if you guys have been following on Twitter, but Carl Alexander's Ymir product, which is essentially a cloud-based WooCommerce setup, that's a much different take where it's spawning, oh gosh, what's it called? What's the thing where you... the no code thing where you trigger an action on AWS.

Brad: Are you talking about Lambda on AWS?

David: Yeah. So essentially the stored procedures on Amazon that run when they're needed, it's not a server that's running 24/7, ready to serve requests, this one's ready to serve requests and run code on demand, but they spawned these individual little processes, and the Ymir project from Carl, I saw some data on it where he was able to have, is it your 300 or 3000 concurrent users in WooCommerce checkout on the very smallest T2 micro instance on AWS. And that is mind blowing.

To dive a little bit deeper into what you're saying about the advantages of the decoupled, I've always had the foundational belief that clients should never be dependent upon something when they've paid you for it once. If they ask you to build something, you should build it as robust as possible to where they're not coming back to you a month later, you should try to explore avenues and ask the questions that the client has not thought of yet.

And say, well, okay, I get it, you're not, for example, Reebok, but the challenges are the same, you're growing to a point where you have a warehouse, you have all of this, and warehousing is just one part of the E-commerce pie if you divide it up, you've got accounting, you've got legal, you've got marketing, you've got all these different things that you may end up having third-party services for, and if you concentrate all of your customization into one bucket, which is WordPress Core WooCommerce, instead of making them just an agnostic data provider, at some point that will come back to bite you, it's not if it's when.

Because I mean, let's be Frank, these companies get acquired, they change direction, lead developers disappear. I mean, my experience in OS Commerce shows that what once was a giant, although a niche giant, but once you ask the question, okay, free OS Commerce solution or free E-commerce solution, OSCommerce was number one and there was not a number two, forever, until Magento came along, which I know those guys, because they were O Commerce guys. And then PrestaShop, same thing, they were OS Commerce guys.

Brad: Yeah. Pretty cool. And I got to say, not to sidetrack, but we have video on, I know this is audio only, but your background is one of the cooler backgrounds, flexing back here, you've got the 3D printer going, I don't know, I can't quite see what you're making, but it's kind of neat to see it go in the background, assuming that's real and not like a Zoom thing, it looks real.

Bob: Yeah, I've been mesmerized by that.

David: No, no, it's very real, I'm not sure, mostly I am known in the WordPress Core community as the crazy Christmas light guy, because I'm one of those guys that have $60,000 sunk into Christmas lights, and they're animated to music and whatnot, and sort of a side hustle that I have is 3D printing bits and pieces for that hobby for other people to buy, I'm not selling them for profit, I'm just selling them at cost, but 3D... I'm kind of a hardware nerd and so I do that, I've been doing woodworking for years and building on the house, but yeah, right now, it's printing a little adapter for some Christmas lights stuff.

Bob: Pretty cool. Yeah, I was on your site and under your services I saw web development and Christmas lights, and I thought, okay, now I've got to... am I seeing this right, and then it was like, oh, okay. I went there and saw what you're selling there and stuff. So, yeah, very interesting, and what's really funny about that is somebody is on your site and they're looking, I mean, not everybody does Christmas lights, but there is some potential there of going down another tunnel when they're on your site, it's like, oh yeah, Christmas lights, now wait, maybe I don't need a web developer, but I am really interested in the Christmas lights.

Brad: Hey, just think Bob, you could set up some cool triggers every time you make a sale, the lights on your house start play a little ching songs, they all go green with every sale that comes, have to got some fun with that?

David: And there's, like I said, Christmas lights is a hobby, and there's a huge community around that, don't miss that. And in the Christmas lights community, I'm the guy who's the crazy web developer who can essentially like, this past Christmas, I added a Twilio integration on the Christmas lights website, where when someone is sitting out in front of the house, they could hit a button on their phone and it would send me a text message saying that they requesting stickers for their kids, and that would immediately send me a text message, and also I've integrated where there's essentially 11 raspberry pies out in the front yard when the show is going. And all of those talk to the website in real time in the background using a service worker and they query the show to say what's playing? How much time is left? Are we between shows and this sort of thing? Or is it done for the night? All this sort of stuff.

David: So my web development experience has paid huge dividends there, and I've been a little bit involved with the open source projects that power that, because these are all mostly open source. And actually the few times that I've been able to talk to Matt in person, he is extremely interested in it. To the point where that's mostly what we talk about, because he's very interested in the software, the hardware, the open source nature of it, and he's very, very interested in it, we actually talk about that way more than WordPress stuff, funnily enough.

Brad: I think it's cool, it was pretty fascinating to geek out on stuff like that, so that's pretty neat, I'll have to look up some, maybe we gets a video of your lights or some pictures and share with the show.

David: Yeah, it's lightson14th.com. It's it should be there.

Brad: Plus the web guy has his own website, right?

Bob: Brad's already heading there. Yeah.

David: Yeah. That's one of my tiny little pet projects, it's kind of an experiment, that one is built with Svelte, which is like, web developers are all in a cold sweat about that one or front end devs, because it's the new thing now. But it's essentially similar vein is react and view, it's just a little bit more developer friendly I guess I'd put it, it's a little bit dumbed down, but if it works perfectly fine, for something like that.

Bob: Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, this is for the other, this is for the holiday show, we'll have to come back to David. Yeah.

Brad: That's a good idea. Yeah.

David: Oh, absolutely, that is every... the reason everybody knows I'm the light guy is because most of them now know that between October late September and February, I'm gone, I'm there whenever I feel like it, but I pretty much take a sabbatical every year to just do that. So I worked my butt off for the first nine months of the year, so I could take off three, four months at the end and just sit out in the road every night with a jacket and some traffic wands and a bucket collecting donations and talking on the microphone to people and just that's where my passion is for that point of the year.

And I think it helps me from burnout on various things, because it's I've got this planed break every year, and I realize I'm extremely fortunate to be able to do that, but it's something I've been doing for a very long time, and now it's just that the Christmas lights thing is much more visible and much more of a, I wouldn't call it a celebrity thing, but when it shows up on your local news stations, it's gotten a life of its own and I have to tend to it.

Bob: Well, I'm making a note that later on in the year we'll have this special Woo Builder live feed event from David's front yard.

David: I'll be in my Santa hat.

Bob: Yeah. So noted, so cool. One of the things I want to do, I know I got into the warehousing quite a bit, but I wanted to slip back to something you had said earlier in the conversation on your journey. And that is that when you were in WooCommerce or doing WooCommerce, you said, Hey, I need to start understanding and getting into WordPress Core more, because basically it lives on top of it. And I just wanted to revisit that and have a few thoughts from you, because a lot of the direction of this show, I mean, besides WooCommerce is the importance of staying on top of WordPress Core, especially these days with everything happening.

And obviously was something very, you even, back then, you felt that it critical and probably is a good idea for a lot of the people that are either building products or sites with WooCommerce to be on top of and take more advantage of and be involved with.

David: Sure. I think everybody has their own motives when it comes to WordPress Core, I think in the beginning, I think for all of us it's about chasing props and chasing those little badges on our profile page. And then after a while, I think once you've gotten the props, if you're still there, it really shows a true commitment, I like to think that, like Brad said earlier, I feel like I've earned a little bit of trust in the WordPress core community, and I'm not sure that I actually attribute that to myself more to who I was fortunate enough and privileged enough to latch onto when I actually did finally raise my hand. Because I did spend several years lurking in the Core slack and on track and sort of absorbed and figured out, okay, this is this person, this is this person, these are the actual leaders.

And after 5.2 was released, Josepha, during dev chat basically said, Hey, if you'd like to think about leading a release, we want to try this idea of a squad. And I think that was 2019, early 2019, yep. So that was me and... I was leading the dev chat when Francesca raised her hand to say, Hey, I want to be involved too, she ended up being the release coordinator because that's her skills, my skills are a little bit more technical, so I was put in the triage role with that connection I'd built with Josepha, she was like, Hey, funnily enough, we're having the automatic grand meetup down in Orlando, and I'm only an hour and a half north of there. So she said, I want to meet you.

So I drove down, got a hotel at the same place they were having the meet-up party that night and met her, met Gary Pendergast in person, that was the first time I met Matt in person. So I think it's more along the lines of pure luck and of course I've been able to build on that and establish some of my own merit as well, but I think if someone is coming into it blind, I would say, just raise your hand, say, I'd like to help, there are hundreds of people who can point you in the right direction, sustained commitment is valued more than the amount of commitment.

If you can only contribute soft skills, that's fine for this release squad model that Josepha tried for 5.3 through 5.7, there was a docs lead, and there was a marketing lead and there was a Gutenberg lead, of course, and then there's the release coordinator who's just kind of 30,000 foot view managing everything. You don't have to have technical skills to get involved, even on track, if you learn track as another soft skill, you don't have to necessarily have huge technical skills to even be in the triage role, because it's just asking questions, it's just saying, Hey, what's the next step on this ticket? What's the next step on this feature? Who do we need to get involved here to move this forward? Is this moving forward? Do we need to punch it to the next release?

So my journey is a little bit unique and I realize that kind of like went from zero to 11 really, really, really quick. But I think that was mostly because I had observed for a while, but if I would say somebody coming in and they wanted to take a similar path, it would be raise your hand immediately and just start reaching out to people, making connections and just pace yourself.

Bob: And I like zero to 11, I like any little referral to Spinal Tap, so.

Brad: Take it up to 11 Bob.

Bob: Yeah, that's just one more. Anyway, yeah, this has been an excellent show, I really think that especially developers are looking at getting into this warehouse thing. That is something that they definitely need to understand before moving ahead, and I think you have a lot of that experience and you have a lot to share.

David: But most of this is hard earned experience from clients. Everybody hates name dropping, but I've been involved all the way from say Reebok down to companies that are running just a couple million dollars a year in sales. And that's usually the window where they start to need it. And like I said, if we can just get out in front of some of these decisions before they're made, it's very, very, very, very critical. But I'm happy to deep dive on the hardware, on the software side.

Actually back in the 2000s, I actually had my own, before these companies existed as software as a service companies where they're providing inventory and returns and stuff like that, I had my own, it wasn't available out there, I didn't try to sell it, but I called it project Greenlight. Because it was an old school and Brad will remember old school Pick to Light System. Which was that when you did something good, the order picker pick the right thing, it turned green, that screen turned green and the little thing buzzed. And if it was bad, it turned red. And so I just thought of it as a stoplight and a red light, and that became the genesis for all of that.

Now I don't do it that way anymore, because I realized very early on that there is no, despite these companies being out there, they may work for less than 10% of all the use cases out there. Every situation I've been in is very, very, very, very different. And I would urge you, whether it's me or somebody else, please seek out somebody that has some experience in this before you start making any decisions. Or if you're a developer, same thing, please don't just Willy nilly it and try to build something because you're not just building code you're essentially establishing a new business process that has to be not only dealt with by employees and managers and the owners of the company, but it's something that invariably has to be iterated on as well, it cannot be a static thing.

So please seek someone out no matter who you are, if you don't know what you're doing, please seek somebody out.

Brad: Plan up ahead, right? So you don't have to go back and fix it later, it's always sound advice on this show, right, Bob? Yeah, this is great, definitely could keep going David, been a lot of fun digging in. Some cool and honestly a lot of topics we haven't touched on too much, so that's been a lot of fun, and we even learned about some fun one of your fun hobbies of Christmas lights, which I'm going to check out your video here. As soon as we're done, I'm excited to see what it looks like, the pictures look cool though.

So definitely appreciate having you on. We want to thank our sponsors one last time, Yoast SEO, if you know anything about the web, you know SEO is vital to the success of your website and your E-commerce and or WooCommerce site. Yoast SEO is a no brainer, get it on your site, easily activate integrate with all WooCommerce, just check out yoast.com for more details.

And we also want to thank OSTraining, whether it's for yourself or to help your clients understand their Woo shop and more check out OSTraining.com. And we actually had Robbie Adair from OSTraining on a few episodes ago, right Bob? That was a fun conversation. Check that out if you're curious to hear a little bit more about what her and the team have been doing over there, but definitely doing some cool stuff, so happy to have them on as a sponsor.

And also we always want to remind everyone to make sure you go to dothewoo.io/subscribe, subscribe to the website that we can get updated on the show and all sorts of news that Bob likes to put out through Do the Woo, so definitely subscribe there. David, again, thanks for being on the show, where can people find you online, where's a good place to connect?

David: I think probably the quickest place is just go to my wordpress.org profile that's profiles.wordpress.org/DavidBaumwald, all one word, B-A-U-M-W-A-L-D, that will link to Twitter and my personal website, which is dream-encode.com. And then that's pretty much the starting point for anybody who's trying to seek me out. Yeah, that's how people find me.

Brad: Very cool. Well, thanks for being on the show, David, everything you do for WordPress and WooCommerce, we certainly appreciate it. So, all right, for BobWP, for David B. and for Brad W. It's another episode of Do the Woo, we'll see you next time.