Yes, we could call it a boom in 2020. The Woo space found a lot of innovations by product makers and building online stores soar. On a quick development track, David Mainayar from PeachPay entered the space in the middle of it all.
We talk with David about that, his competitors and the recent partnership with WooCommerce.
A Chat with David
Mendel and I talk with David about:
- Where WordPress and WooCommerce played a role in his journey
- The quick development of a product moving into the Woo space in 2020
- What challenges he found in entering the one-click checkout space in a year of booming eCommerce products
- How PeachPay is democratizing one-click checkout and the role competitors play in their mission
- What does the partnership with WooCommerce bring to PeachPay to accelerate their growth
- How does someone choose which one-click checkout to go with
- What kind of challenges and lessons learned did David go through while entering the Woo ecosystem as a new face
Connect with David
Thanks to Our Pod Friends
Bob: Hey, everyone. BobWP episode 127 of Do the Woo. You've been hearing a lot of me just talking at the beginning because I've been doing some of our events as podcasts, but it's nice to have Mendel back, that delightful little voice that chimes in and gives us such insights. Hey, Mendel.
Mendel: Hi, Bob.
Bob: How are you doing?
Mendel: Hey. You just said I was a delightful little voice, so I was being a delightful little voice. I didn't know I was a little.
By the way, what's your favorite fruit, Bob.
Bob: Man, I liked a lot of fruits. That's a tough one. Really like watermelon. Grapes. Berries. Oranges.
Mendel: You like the waterier fruits?
Bob: Yeah, I Do. I like juiciness.
Mendel: I'm a Kiwi guy, myself. Ever since I was a little kid, but I learned later on in life that you can chop it up and eat it with the fur on. I didn't know that. I always thought they were pain, but now I eat them with the fur. Next step is eating the ends of them. But you know what? People didn't come here to hear about fruit. Anyway, why don't you get this show started for us, Bob, so we can get into hanging out with our sweet, sweet, new guest.
Bob: Cool. I will do that shortly, but first, a little shout out to our pod friends, of course, without them, we wouldn't be doing the Woo.
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Mendel: Hey Bob, do you remember that song, by the way, "The Electric Slide?" I think somebody should reinvent it in a geeky way and call it "The Elastic Slide" and do an ElasticPress sort of jam. Just saying.
Bob: Yeah, was "The Electric Slide" from the seventies?
Mendel: I don't know. That was before my time.
Bob: Because I probably don't know, if it's not from the seventies. I forgot everything since the seventies.
Mendel: We won't talk about why. All right, well, cool. I'll stop interrupting and let you introduce our fabulous guest today on the show.
Bob: And I will do that. And we both, yeah, we will start rambling off in different directions. David from PeachPay. Welcome to the show.
David: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I was wondering if you guys were going to tie the fruit bit into PeachPay, I was about to flood your cleverness.
Bob: Oh, man. You lost your opportunity there, Mendel.
David: Golden opportunity right there.
Mendel: I would say you did, Bob, because you didn't say peaches were your favorite fruit. I'm just saying.
Bob: Oh, so that's why, duh. Okay. I see what you were heading... It really is, but there's such a short season that I forget about them, but I just bought my first Peach.
Mendel: Those stone fruit, man. Short seasons.
Bob: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Peaches are... Yeah. Peaches are good. So back to PeachPay, David. Man, this is all fruit and everything going on here today. David, how do you do the Woo?
David: Yeah, I do the Woo basically the same way everybody at PeachPay does the Woo and that's by doing my part to democratize one-click checkout. We really believe that this is something that's quite overdue, at least since 2017. Really there's no excuse for this not being ubiquitous. And so, we're really focused on the WooCommerce ecosystem. So, we, rather than trying to jump on as many ecommerce platforms as possible, we're really doubling down and trying to build high and just focused on WooCommerce.
Mendel: Hey, David, so before we get into all of that because PeachPay is part of who you are today, though PeachPay probably isn't part of who you were 10 years ago. So how'd you get involved with WordPress? How'd you come to Woo? What's your origin story? And you're not allowed to mention the word PeachPay at all in that origin story because I think people would love to know.
David: Yeah, sure. So 10 years ago I was quite young and I did not know of WordPress, but I did find out about WordPress pretty much my last year of high school, when I was helping out with this YouTube channel called "The Armchair Historian." Interestingly enough, I was always very much into history and so the channel creator was a friend of mine, and ultimately I helped grow the channel from about 30,000 subscribers to 500,000 by the time I left, which was early 2020. And it's an interesting problem that historical content creators face on YouTube, basically, the YouTube algorithm flags a lot of content as sensitive for advertisers. And so there had to be some sort of solution to this dilemma that a lot of these content creators faced, and, without getting into too many details about why this was a good solution, we decided to create a WordPress site where these videos would be played in their entirety.
Because oftentimes a lot of these videos, they had to be modified in some way so that they were more advertiser friendly. And so that meant indirectly censorship in a way, or at least that's what people would call it, right? So this was a site where content creators, and we amassed a whole bunch, and the site is still alive, actually, it's called armchairhistory.com. And so, this site just was an amalgamation of a bunch of historical content creators who otherwise produced content on YouTube, but also on the site, and they didn't have to worry about these restrictions that were otherwise imposed on them. And so I was leaning pretty heavily on Elementor in helping to create it. I was a complete newbie, but I was able to learn and ever since then, I've kind of had my eye on WordPress.
Mendel: Okay. And so just kind of walking you through that history a little bit more, you were heavily involved with this website, armchairhistory.com, is that what you said?
Mendel: Yeah. So armchairhistory.com. And then at some point you decided that you were interested in commerce, and then at some point you decided that you would go and build a one-click solution for WooCommerce. And at some point after or before that you decided that it would only be for WooCommerce and it wouldn't be for Shopify or other, Magento, other platforms, right? So I'm curious what bridged you between Armchair Historian and, or armchairhistory, and then to ecommerce and eventually PeachPay.
David: Yeah, I think trying to come up with some narrative with just be pure narrative fallacy, I would say. It's kind of disconnected in a way. It's kind of happenstance.
One thing I do want to clarify is that I think Chris Lema did a great job illustrating why it doesn't really make sense for these one-click checkout solution providers to just be focused on one ecosystem. So we do have plans to be on other ecosystems, as well. Shopify not so much because they have ShopPay and they keep payments very close to their chest, but we do have a roadmap for other platforms. And the logic is that the buyers don't really differentiate between platforms, right?
They don't care if they're on Shopify or WooCommerce or Magento or what have you. And you just want to maximize the chance that the buyer, when they're shopping, has seen this one-click checkout provider, PeachPay, before, so that way they have access to the one-click checkout. Essentially, so when I said that we're focused on WooCommerce, doubling down on it and building high, what I meant to say is that really we're starting with WooCommerce and we want to get this market down, we want to get it right. And we want to make sure that PeachPay works with every merchant's favorite third-party integrations, all the plugins, all the themes, all the site builders, and then move on to the other platforms. But we want to make sure we get this one right first. We don't want to leave a bad taste in merchants' mounts.
Mendel: So before I let Bob jump in, even though this is clearly Bob's show, and I'm just-
Bob: This is Mendel's show.
Mendel: ... Hijacking it. I want to step back really quick because I think we glossed over it, and there might not be a connection between what you were doing first with WordPress and what you're doing now with PeachPay, but I'm curious what the origin story of PeachPay itself is, right? Because clearly this was hatched out of some idea or you saw something else in the market and you wanted to improve on it or something, right? So I'm curious kind of what the origin story of PeachPay is, independent of this connection with your past.
Bob: Yeah, and that I'd like to add onto that because in that same line, it's kind of, where WooCommerce and the idea of one-click come in? Did WooCommerce come in first, did one-click come in first or were they together at the same time? Which ties into what Mendel asked.
David: Yeah, so WooCommerce did come first, and essentially, the origin story lies in... Or the origin story can be traced back to the height of the pandemic. Spring of 2020. We were browsing this freshly set up online store, which happened to be built with WooCommerce, and it was some local retailer who set it up. They did not have an online presence up until recently, this is kind of a classic story to come out of the pandemic, right? Obviously, there was this explosion in ecommerce and ecommerce accelerated by five, 10, 15 years, right? And so this merchant, they were kind of forced to set up an ecommerce presence. They didn't think too much about it. You could see that they kind of scrambled to do it.
And the checkout process was very, very poorly optimized, and it was incredibly frictional. And in this case, this was an item that we really needed, and it took about 30, 45 minutes to actually get through the checkout. And so that's when we realized something's really wrong. We had all had pretty bad checkout experiences in the past, but nothing like this, nothing quite this frictional. And sure enough, once we turned to the web, we looked at the numbers, we were seeing the effects of this, made manifest mostly through the whopping cart abandonment rates. Cart abandonment is at an all time high. And so then, after quite a bit of research, we sort of identified cart abandonment as this growing problem, and we made the connection to a bad checkout experience, a frictional checkout experience, which I think not enough merchants, quite frankly, make that connection.
A lot of the time merchants are thinking about, "How do I reduce cart abandonment?" They're thinking about the CRM, email automation, plugins, the ones that send the email reminders about you left something in your cart. They're not always thinking about simplifying the checkout process, making it as easy as possible. But we didn't think of one-click checkout right away. In fact, the first iteration of the product was based on QR codes. And so we wanted to just put a QR code on people's sites and then have them download a mobile application, they scan the QR code, and then they check out through the mobile app. And we still have the mobile app.
Mendel: This was all starting in 2020?
Mendel: Wow. Okay. So this product has developed quickly.
David: Yeah. And it was mostly because we were just trying to start as many conversations with merchants as possible, right? Very much in keeping with the lean startup model and building, iterating, building, iterating. Trying to shorten feedback loops and get as much feedback as possible, and then that would inform our product development approach. And the merchants didn't like it. Not at all. They very correctly pointed out that, look, checkout is frictional.
We understand that, but you're proposing that you force people to download an app, and then you basically put up a barrier to check out. It doesn't make much sense. And so we realized we have to have some sort of web checkout. Pretty much, as soon as we started building that web checkout, what came from that was essentially one-click checkout. And it's basically, we reached that point in January of 2021. Since January 2021, we've really been dead set on this vision of one-click checkout, and now our mission is quite simply to democratize one-click checkout.
Bob: This product is fresh in your brain and a lot of our listeners are creating their own products and struggling with them or trying to come up with ideas. When you looked at the ecosystem around what people were doing with checkouts, did you think, "Okay, this is the perfect time. Is this the time that it's starting to explode, but we have to make this unique in its own way. And we know that others are going to enter the market." Were there any hesitations, challenges, beyond the QR code when you started moving into this?
David: Yeah, sure. So right away, we also realized that checkout is not the... One-click checkout or just a simple, well, at the time, a simplified checkout through QR codes, but then even with one-click checkout, it's not the end all be all. It's really simplified checkout or, in its most simple state, one-click checkout is just a product that lets you build a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? Our view is that post checkout is also very important. And when you look at ShopPay, they simplify checkout and then they don't stop there. They have an app that lets you track orders and all sorts of stuff, right? So we kept developing this mobile app to essentially let you browse your past orders and even track your orders, but we realized that really the app didn't make as much sense.
And the post checkout features didn't make as much sense to focus on in the absence of a network and pretty sizeable ecosystem of buyers and sellers. And so we decided to de-emphasize that bit temporarily and just focus on the checkout offering. And the idea is that you just get people to the a-ha moment of, "Okay, this simplifies checkout." And then as you introduce people into the ecosystem, both buyers and sellers, then we unveil the app with more bells and whistles, and something, also, that functions as a sort of catalog and lets you just browse by item, which is how people actually do browse, right? Most of the time. They're looking up items, they're looking up item categories. So having this app sort of displaced where, as a buyer, you go on it to look up various... Like an item that you're looking for and then a number of different stores come up and these are optimized for location, for past preferences, even.
This is something just we're increasingly thinking about, even if right now we don't have that critical mass of buyers and sellers yet, but we're thinking about how do you extend the benefits of a centralized system like Amazon with its very robust recommendation engine to a decentralized network with all its merits like WooCommerce?
Mendel: It's definitely interesting. And it's also interesting because in a way... So your goal is to democratize one-click checkout. I noticed you make mention, and maybe not in the kindest way, of Fast and Bolt on the footer of your website. I guess I'm curious, aren't you in a way kind of splintering the democratization when the entire process is based on the ability of buyers and sellers to be in the same ecosystem, right? So you're kind of pulling off from those other ecosystems for your piece of the pie, which don't get me wrong, business is great, right? And building a product is awesome. And competition obviously drives markets. So that's awesome, but I'm curious, kind of, what the longterm goal of PeachPay is to help democratize instead of splinter the ecosystem.
David: Hmm. Really right now we think it's just worth focusing on the one-click checkout offering, again, as a sort of product that lets us build this network, at which point, the possibilities are really limitless. So right now our mission is very much democratize one-click checkout, but in the future, it will be simply to free up the bandwidth that a merchant will increasingly have to devote to checkout optimization because the truth is that there are also customers and offerings that they're better suited to upselling and cross-selling, which by definition introduces some friction, right? Or buy now, pay later type of solutions, split pay solutions, of which there are no shortage, right? Increasingly, I think very much, that there's going to be this situation where merchants are agonizing over, "Well, which payment methods do I show on my product page and cart page and checkout page?"
Now we have some merchants right now already kind of being aware of all these different solutions and methods of letting people pay and trying to just do everything and not making any trade offs. And that's possibly the worst thing you can do because then it leads to the situation where it's paralysis by analysis, right? Just way too many payment methods. It just looks like way too many payment methods on a product page, and it confuses people. It just doesn't look good design-wise at all.
And so increasingly, merchants will realize that they have to make these trade-offs, and we want to kind of take that burden off their shoulders. That's more a long-term plan and it requires steady inflow of data. And it really requires this sort of network that would allow us to essentially pair the right type of checkout experience with a certain buyer.
And that essentially, that makes us more an identity management solution. But in the meantime, I would say that, you go on a random ecommerce site and you simply don't find one-click checkout that often. Something that you see a lot on WooCommerce is like the site by site one-click checkout solutions. So you have one-click checkout for this site as a returning customer, or obviously, if you create an account, you get that same experience, you can check out much easier if you create an account, but it's about building the network, right? It's about giving someone access to one-click checkout when they've never been on your store before. And that in itself, I think, is worth focusing on right now just because you don't see it. And in all seriousness, what we have on our site is just fun and games.
And in reality, I mean, we do have respect for the Bolt and Fast teams. Especially Bolt, I mean, they've been in the game since I think 2014 and they have their own payment processor, and so we have relationships with some members of the Bolt team. We've had multiple conversations. In a way, it's kind of a good thing that there's at least three of us, and I'm surprised that there aren't more, quite frankly. Because, as I spoke about earlier, the problem of cart abandonment is very well known, but then checkout optimization as a solution is not usually connected to that problem. And so we, actually, we found it to be a good thing that there's three players, including us, evangelizing this concept of one-click checkout and connecting the problem to the solution.
Mendel: Yeah. Like I mentioned, competition is usually always good. I guess, what would be cool in light of this mission would to see you leverage the APIs of these other companies and to tap in to the communities and the ecosystems that they're building in addition to your own and work together instead of building against because I think that... At least if democratizing is the goal, right? If democratizing, if building an ecosystem and a company and all of that is more the goal, then that's awesome, too, right? But as I think about it, I think I really don't know who to go with, right? Do I go with the older player? Do I go with the new hotness? Or do I go with the one that's democratizing, right?
And so I know that there's ecosystem already in Bolt, there's a growing ecosystem in Fast, and there's a new but burgeoning ecosystem being created with PeachPay. I assume that part of WooCommerce's or Automattic's investment in PeachPay is meant to accelerate some of the growth in that ecosystem. So I'm curious what kind of investment WooCommerce and Automattic are providing as far as skills or advice or opportunity or growth opportunity. I know that you're kind of the growth hacker of the company, right? So what sort of opportunities are they unlocking, and is that going to help pull you in front of these competitors? Because I think when you have a small group of competitors and they're all pretty known in the space, it can get fierce, right?
David: Oh, thank you.
Mendel: But yeah, how has your new partnership or your new relationship with WooCommerce and helping to accelerate the product and the growth?
David: Yeah, so obviously, this is the very picture of a strategic investor, right? I mean, we couldn't ask for a better investor in the form of the WooCommerce team, the team behind the ecosystem that we're servicing, but right now conversations are very fresh. We're all very excited about the possibilities, but obviously, it's up to us, it's up to the PeachPay team to really find product market fit. And even an investor as strategic as WooCommerce will not give us product market fit. We have to go and find it on our own. And as for the WooCommerce team, I mean, obviously they have no shortage of responsibilities and different initiatives and projects that they're juggling, and check-out is just one component in that, frankly,
Mendel: So it sounds like this is more of a monetary contribution rather than like a talent or a... Sometimes people invest in companies and then they provide some sort of guidance or mentorship to that company as a result, but it sounds like this is mostly, "Hey, we need resources to keep our product going in the right direction." And so that was kind of the role of WooCommerce in this situation?
David: I think that remains to be seen because, yeah, on one hand they can help us achieve things a lot faster than we would otherwise achieve. But also once we get bigger, then obviously, then there's even more we could do together potentially.
Mendel: Yeah. That makes sense.
David: But then to answer an after question you posed about, what do I go with then? There's three, maybe there could be way more, but three is already enough to give you pause and consider which do I go with as a merchant? I mean, one thing to consider right off the bat is that Bolt obviously services merchants. Their whole mission is to democratize commerce, funnily enough, the same mission statement as WooCommerce, right? But they're only servicing merchants that are making about $3 million plus in annual GMV. And so really this disqualifies the vast majority of merchants, right?
These are the hotshots, really, these are the merchants that represent a small minority in the WooCommerce ecosystem particularly. And then as for choosing between Fast and PeachPay, that might give you further pause, but really what it comes down to is, is the product delivering? Does it integrate with this plugin that I can't go without? And so that's what we're working very hard to ensure is the case. That merchants don't have to make any trade offs. They're using a discount plugin, they're using some color swatch plugin. They don't have to forego using that plugin just to use PeachPay. We absolutely do not want that to be the case.
Mendel: Got it. So that relates to your starting focus on WooCommerce rather than focusing on a broader set. So you're looking towards full compatibility as far as layout, as far as functionality, as far as discounts, as far as all that stuff goes in the checkout with WooCommerce, and then moving on to other ecosystems as you've built that up.
David: So that's precisely what I meant by building tall, right? I'm making sure that we're... There's so many, there's I think 2,000 themes, 2,000 WooCommerce specific themes, 1,000 WooCommerce specific plugins, but obviously a whole bunch of plugins that are being used by WooCommerce merchants, which maybe aren't deemed WooCommerce specific. And so to integrate with all those or to make sure that we're compatible with all those, obviously all of them don't need custom integrations because there's just no reason for there to be some sort of clash. But we do have to do the due diligence and we take it very seriously. And then on top of that, we're built on top of Stripe, ShopBase built on top of Stripe, WooCommerce Payments is built on top of Stripe. Fast is built on top of Stripe. They got an investment from Stripe. Lead investor, right?
Unlike maybe some of these other solutions, we're not just betting on this one pony. I mean, we're going to be integrating with other payment providers as well. I know a favorite on the show, PayPal, I mean, it's next on our list. It's huge, and it's competing, it's neck and neck with Stripe, right? In the WooCommerce ecosystem, both about 800,000 active installations, so huge percentage of the market. We want to do more of these payment provider integrations because we've already spoken to a lot of merchants who would like to use PeachPay, but maybe they're not in one of those 45 countries or they don't have a bank account in one of those 45 countries where Stripe operates. So that's next on the list as well.
Mendel: Yeah. That's super important is being able to access funds, right? And I'm regularly talking with merchants in different parts of the world that don't have a payment provider or have a payment provider that's not so great, right? And so, yeah, that's definitely, that's a cool opportunity.
David: Yeah. Obviously, Bolt does already integrate with these other payment providers. Very interestingly enough, they have their own processor, but they're payment provider agnostic, and it'll all integrate into the Bolt check out window. With Fast, I mean, it remains to be seen, right? I mean, obviously Stripe is this lead investor, and so are they locked into Stripe? We'll have to see.
Bob: Interesting. Well, I'm going to lead off the end of this with a question. You have stepped into the ecosystem with a billion other people that did in 2020, it grew, and this community, which I deal with a lot and talk with a lot, is very unique, like WordPress and like any community, you enter it and there things to be discovered. It's like opening a door at a conference and stepping into 50,000 people and where do I start? Just briefly, maybe, tell us a little bit about what you learned stepping into this ecosystem. What was that experience? Did you go in smooth or were there some hiccups along the way?
David: Yeah, I think there's a temptation to go fast, right? We definitely succumb to that temptation and obviously it's built into [inaudible 00:33:05] as well. I'm sure that it's a priority for them or has been, maybe they're seeing things differently now, but we found that what's important in this ecosystem is trust and legitimacy and talking to people like yourself who are trusted sources in the community. Trust just simply goes a long way. It's a currency of its own. In most communities, but I'd say particularly WooCommerce and WordPress. And so we would just try to... I'd say a mistake that we made would be to go out and badger a lot of people, including yourselves, right? Both of yourselves, I'm sure, also, were the target of this, and it's simply not the right approach.
I mean, trust takes a little while to build here. And rightfully so, because as a WordPress plugin, you actually have a lot of leeway, a lot of leverage. WordPress doesn't support some of these finer permissions. It's as simple as that. And so you have a lot of power as a WordPress plugin developer to, quite frankly, screw things up, either intentionally or unintentionally. And so we were trying, we were just banging our heads against the wall, seeing nobody was moving at the same pace as we were, but we realized why that was. We realized the folly of going a hundred miles per hour in a 25 mile zone. So you have to essentially take your time, at least get the conversation started, is what we found, and then build that trust.
That's why also we pushed so hard for this investment is because for a few fresh faced upstarts, that legitimacy can be hard to come by. And so that's why this investment, I'd say already it transcended just purely a monetary transaction. As we discussed earlier, there's a lot of overlap, but even above that, just from the get-go, what it gives us is the legitimacy to start a lot of these conversations. And that's very important.
And we've just come to understand that it really makes sense, particularly with these bigger sites, they're running a lot of plugins, there's a lot of custom coded features and whatnot to account for, and so we simply realized that the rabbit hole just goes far deeper than we initially thought. And we were maybe a little naive at first in thinking that it would be trivial for a developer to give our plugin a shot and to put it on a merchant site, see how it goes. We realized that it would be very important for us to demonstrate that we can integrate with all these different third party plugins. And we know what we're doing, we're proven WordPress developers, and whether it's a merchant or a developer, the plugin suite will seamlessly integrate with PeachPay.
Mendel: Yeah. I think trust is super important, right? I say this a lot in a lot of places, right? But people do business with people they trust. With payment providers, people do business especially with people they know and trust. And when you're inserting yourself in between the payment provider and the cart experience, that trust is even more important, right? Because there's a potential for hijacking data. There's a potential for a problem with the plugin or something like that.
To be clear, I'm not saying that you're doing any of that. I'm just saying that these are concerns that people have when you're sitting in such a critical space, right? Or just the plugin malfunctioning, right? And causing somebody to lose revenue, precious dollars, because their checkout isn't working. And so it's cool to hear that you have a focus on building that trust and also making sure that the plugin is functioning well, and that your relationships continue to expand to offer more opportunities in more countries for merchants. So that's all good to hear.
And as Bob always likes to say, "That's all folks." No, he... I'm going to end the show unceremoniously, right? But before we talk with you about how people can find you online, I wanted to quick give a shout out to our sponsors Wayflyer. Don't forget to check out Wayflyer, They specialize in revenue based financing to help your clients with their marketing and inventory at wayflyer.com. That's W-A-Y-F-L-Y-E-R.com. And 10up, they're the creators of ElasticPress, and they help you get the right search solutions, no brainer, for you or your client's WooShop. You can check it out at elasticpress.io. I won't spell that because it's easier to spell, but I want to thank you so much, David, for being on, answering the hard questions, and contributing something back to the WooCommerce space. And, David, tell us where people can find you.
David: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was my pleasure. And people can find us at peachpay.app, all our socials and whatnot are on the website, but really all the meat is on the website. So you can see for yourself how the plugin works, and pretty soon we're going to be releasing a page with a lot of these third-party integrations I spoke of which we know merchants take very seriously and developers take very seriously, so. And we have a whole revamped site coming soon as well.
Mendel: Cool. Well, Bob, thank you for once again allowing me to ruin one of your shows. It's been a pleasure and a true honor to be a co-host with you today on this, the 127th episode of Do the Woo.
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