Do the Woo Roundtable: WooCommerce Checkout Ecosystem

Do the Woo Podcast Woo Roundtable Episode 157

Do the Woo - A WooCommerce Podcast
Do the Woo - A WooCommerce Podcast
Do the Woo Roundtable: WooCommerce Checkout Ecosystem

This time around they are talking checkout. The WooCommerce checkout has seen quite some growth from extensions and SaaS products. One-click solutions have been at the top of the list. All of which are aiming to create a solution to one of the most critical part of the online shop.


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Highlights of the chat

  • The what and why of the checkout ecosystem [00:55]
  • The big deal of the one-click checkout [3:28]
  • A bigger discussion, a bigger decision [07:35]
  • Educating the user on the different checkout options [09:05]
  • The world of SaaS tapping into Woo [10:30]
  • Crypto, the weird boogeyman in the room [13:05]
  • Where the money is put for that next integration [16:25]
  • Security and decentralizing [21:30]
  • Connecting with the user,  the newer one-click technologies challenge [26:36]
  • Product builders in the checkout space and marketing their solution [30:31]

Thanks to Our Pod Friends


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Ronald: Hi, my name is Ronald. I work for YITH and here we are for episode, 157. And with me, I have Robbie Adair from OSTraining and also Robert Jacobi from Cloudways. And today I just want to talk about the WooCommerce checkout and everything that's happening in the space. So here's what I'm thinking. We have lots of news with one-click payment providers. We have headless payment providers. We have other solutions that claim to be the next thing when it comes to checkout for higher conversions to happier merchants, but I hear so much of it. I can't really get my head around it. So Robert, my first question to you is what's happening in the ecosystem? Why is it happening?

The what and why of the checkout ecosystem [00:55]

Robert: Why is it? It's all happening 14 years too late. When Amazon patented its wonderful one-click checkout, it really stifled innovation and competition in a broader e-commerce sense. A lot of these new tools that are coming out that we'll get to are finally taking advantage of the fact that they can build out customized one-click, easy checkout solutions, where before unless you were Apple, you probably weren't going to be able to license the rights to actually do something quite similar. So thank goodness time moves on and we can actually start innovating again. We can have a whole patent discussion about software another day, but this is a perfect example of how we could have been here years ago, and had such easier, more functional tools. But yep. As far as I see it, it's the big expiration of the patent that's driving a lot of the innovation now.

Ronald: That's a really interesting thought, and I'm going to come back on that. But first Robbie, is there a need for this technology? Are customers and are users ready for that? Or what do you hear? What do you find?

Robbie: The one-click checkout. We actually have a customer that we were just talking to about this, as a matter of fact. I do feel that some people are a little hesitant because they feel that their checkout process is in place, and their customers know it, and so adding this on will it mean people don't use the other way that we're doing it now, and things like that. There seems to be a little bit of confusion and skepticism, as it were, about that. Now I do think that they're going to opt to do it, so I will know more later actually after we actually get some results and see how it worked out for them, but they were hesitant which I thought was interesting.

I do think that the main reason that they came to us about this, though, and asking should they do this. Again, we know. We talk about it in every podcast I feel like at this point. The pandemic changed the landscape of our user's need for quick checkout, want of quick checkout, and they've just gotten more savvy. Even people who've never ordered things online before the pandemic had to and so now people are saying, "Well, this is kind of a clunky checkout. I'm having to go through all these screens. And on this other one, I just click a button." I think that that's part of what is driving it to our customers asking for it now.

The big deal of the one-click checkout [3:28]

Ronald: Yeah. So partly the customer realizes everything is fine, it's not broken, so why fix it? But at the same time they hear signals of actually you can do a better job. There is a way to improve your checkout. PayPal Express has been around for such a long time, and I think there's a bit of a love and hate relationship with a beautiful yellow, orangy button. Robert, so Amazon, their licensing expired. So why have they been able to have this one-click before anybody else? And why is everybody else only now catching on to this technology?

Robert: There's probably some devils in the details on the actual patent, and which way PayPal implemented it, and how that may have been slightly different from patent. Or they may have just licensed it. Amazon did license it to Apple for iTunes one-click purchases, so those deals did occur. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a deal with PayPal to make that happen earlier than most other companies. But I assume that licensing was cost-prohibitive for the startups that we're seeing today like PeachPay and Fast, which could not have had a business model around that prior to that patent expiration.

Ronald: Yeah. Maybe we're focusing too much just on the one-click checkout or other new payment providers, one of which, of course, is WooCommerce Payments which has been around for a year now. But in a recent WooCommerce roundtable, WooCommerce announced they are expanding the territories and more payment types that you've got now multicurrency and so on. Do you think there's a race to get market share when it comes to checkouts? And it's not just WooCommerce Payments. GoDaddy might have their own preferred method, and other hosts or other one-click WooCommerce installs. Robbie, what's your sort of view on that?

Robbie: So Woo Payments. I'm glad you brought that up because I was just thinking about that when we were talking about the other things. I feel like almost every week they're sending me announcement of something new that they're adding in, which is great. I feel like they're being pretty aggressive in their development in adding more sources into Woo Payments, which just makes it more attractive. It makes it more attractive for the customers. Whenever I talk to them too it's like, "Well, we can set you up here, here, here, here. You can get Woo Payments," so it's making it a little bit more attractive. I do think we'll see that more and more though, you're right, with other people replicating that. If something's successful, what do you do?

There's going to be people who replicate it and put their spin on it. I think we will see some more competition in that space, but Woo Payments thus far has been fairly impressive to me. I've been working with it more and more, and the more I work with it, yeah, that's pretty cool. With everything that's new, there's always some learning curve, but I have been pleasantly surprised with them. We've had one customer who was doing a lot of that on their own and had a few issues, but I will say they were very surprised at how quickly Woo Payments support got back to them. And it was a combination, by the way, of Woo Payments and Stripe support that helped them so that was interesting as well. We all know Woo Payment sits on top of Stripe, but the fact that they have support level all the way down into Stripe is interesting, I felt like.

Ronald: Okay, that's a nice experience because, of course, those are the things that we all wonder what's going to happen if there is an issue, so they collaborate very closely.

A bigger discussion, a bigger decision [07:35]

Robbie: Obviously if we go back, like Robert was saying, if we look back years ago, because it has been a slow process, I kind of feel like. It was basically you did PayPal and an And then it was PayPal, and Stripe, and, or some variant of that Braintree, whatever it might be. Now it's just a bigger discussion. It's a bigger decision for clients, it's a bigger discussion with clients because there's so many more offerings now. Sometimes it does get confusing and you really have to sit down and figure out the client, what they're selling, where they're selling, meaning where is their customer base going to be? If it's international, this is a way bigger discussion, but if it's going to be more local-based as a restaurant deliveries, things like this, then it may be a shorter conversation.

When you start talking international, to me, I feel like it's even gotten more convoluted when we go international because each country also now has its own little offerings. Well in this country, this is more preferred than this. And so the international discussion has gotten bigger, and then we haven't even talked about Amazon Pay and Google Pay, and Apple Pay being incorporated in. Do you do those solo? Do you go through something like a Woo Payments, some other broader base that offers that in their set of tools? E-commerce was already a complicated discussion, but I feel like now it's becoming even more complicated.

Educating the user on the different checkout options [09:05]

Ronald: Do you feel that you need to educate your customers in general terms that you understand the different options. What you've just asked, do you need this? Do you need that? Does the client know these things? Are they aware of that? Do they tell you what they need, what they want?

Robbie: It's a combination, and I always feel like am I an authority? Well, I've been doing this for so many years. Yes, I do have that. But it's so complicated now that I feel like I learn things from my clients as well, and especially whenever you start asking those questions, then they're going to be coming back with their experience that they may already have in an offline world with their business. They may already know, "Well, this is where all my customers come from typically, and looking at it percentage-wise, this is how many people pay with X, and how many people pay with whatever else."

Looking at their demographics too, is it an older clientele base or a younger clientele base? A younger clientele base buys a lot differently. When you talk about that one click, that really becomes important when you're dealing with the millennials and under. They grew up with that in their hands, four years old texting. Probably four years old buying music on Apple. They are much more savvy and they expect things to work very smoothly.

The world of SaaS tapping into Woo [10:30]

Ronald: Yeah. And it's not even so very long ago that wherever your credit card machine came from, you would go with the same merchant whether it's Worldpay, and you just accept that it's taken off site, coming back, you'd have to set up your own links, and now we've moved on to much smoother checkout process. I think the next step is where we start to see other SaaS services connecting into this checkout experience, whether it's shipping, CRM, mail marketing, and so on. That's sort of next generation of integration. Robert, do you see things happening? Do you see the world of SaaS tapping into Woo?

Robert: You even touched on it a bit. It needs to be, at the end of the day, seamless for the end-user, seamless for the developer. An agency doesn't want to have to deal with five different providers to make sure everyone's happy. So how do you white-label, obfuscate all that nonsense, and how easily is it to integrate? We're not all that old, but you look back 50 years and you had three, four, five, six, seven different types of credit cards that have all really shrunk down to pretty much American Express, Visa and MasterCard. Each one of them, certainly at that time, had completely independent workflows of one another and they were they weren't spread out across multiple banks. Now you can go to any bank and get a credit card with any flavor, and you're just dealing with that bank. That's great, and that's got to be a bit more... friction will continue to be removed in that process.

Now I'm sure Chase, or Citibank, or any of the major banks would love to just have one super easy integration thing so they could offer maybe better deals to their existing card holders, because then the transaction fee is all internal. Depending if the owner of the store is also on that same bank, that can reduce costs to the bank, but also then encourage people to sign up with those bank's cards, and so on so forth. There's opportunities to monetize all these little things because you're only dealing with tiny fractions of percentages. But if you have enough transactions across the board, it's huge amounts of money, so I have to assume that on the banking and finance side, they're trying to figure out ways, even though they move so slowly, to leverage their financial strength.

Crypto, the weird boogeyman in the room [13:05]

The weird boogeyman in the room will still always be crypto because who knows how that's going to get integrated into this kind of stuff. I have nothing to even hypothesize on where that goes at the moment because I still think it's a little too jumpy for everyday stuff, but there are cryptos that are locked into dollars. If you can build a SaaS platform around that, that also makes those transactions much easier, more transparent, more trackable, especially when you're dealing with higher volume purchases. You're not going to be sitting there saying, "Oh, someone just stole my credit card." Well, we can follow the crypto ledger and see what's going on. So thoughts like that.

Robbie: Thanks Robert for bringing up crypto. Now I've got to go take some antacid because it's just when you really look at it, and I don't know if any of you have done any investing in it. Okay. I'm a little, probably OCD. I made myself absolutely insane watching the crypto when I had some in it, and it was just like, "Oh my gosh. I'm going to make myself crazy looking at this." It is so volatile. It is just so poof. I mean from one minute to the next almost.

And so yeah. When you start trying to think about that paired up with set prices on items in shopping cards, and trying to deal with that, and going through crazy steps right now, especially to use crypto. Woof, yeah. I'm like you, Robert. I don't know. I don't even know how to predict that one myself. I don't think it's going away. That's my one and only prediction. I do not think it's going away. I just think that there will have to be some evolution in it for it to be mainstream.

Robert: Well, it's like horse racing. I know nothing about it. If I put a dollar into crypto, or a dollar on a horse who knows what will happen at the end of the race?

Robbie: That is true.

Ronald: That's a good point. A dollar you can live with, but of course, doing the planning. Anyway, that's a totally different conversation.

BobWP: Hey BobWP here and I’d like to take a moment to thank two of our Pod Friends for their support of Do the Woo.

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And now back to the show.

Where the money is put for that next integration [16:25]

Ronald: What I would like to ask you actually is, so let's say adding cryptos is a feature. Probably people will say that's not a feature, but for example, Woo Payments talked about adding subscriptions. Bulk-comers, they might be looking at upselling within the checkout. These are different features that you can add within the checkout. So my question is a little bit around that. What do you predict will be the big deal-maker? And maybe we can actually take it a step further and say, well actually, if you put yourself into the shoes of one of these merging payment providers or integration within the checkout, where would you put your money for the next integration that's going to entice people to start using it?

Robbie: Well, hmm. I'm in the middle of a really big migration of subscription payments all tied around PayPal, and Braintree, and Recurly and things like that, and trying to move over into a new system with Woo, and Woo Subscriptions. And let me tell you what. This is a very convoluted little situation no matter which side I'm looking at. No matter what CMS I'm working with, and which payment, it's just when you start talking about subscriptions and renewals, there's so many layers there that you're going through. You could do something. I'll call this the basic subscription, which is a PayPal Subscription because PayPal has had it built in for a long time. Not pleased with the way it's built into PayPal, but it's there and it has been there for a very long time. That was, I will say, one of the first dealings that I had with subscriptions was working with people on PayPal Subscriptions. It's there and it hasn't changed.

I feel like PayPal Subscription, there's the no change. They're like, "It works. Don't fix it." Now we're seeing all these other subscription services that are starting to pop up, even Woo Subscriptions. Then you have the SaaS products like Recurly, and there's some others, and I blanked on them. There's others that are going to do your renewals for you. They're going to do that. Now you've got this added layer, that SAS layer, in there. Everybody wants a piece of the pie, too, so it becomes pretty expensive. The more layers we add in, there's somebody's getting a little feast along every step of it. If we've got a four-step process, there's four different people out there getting a little piece of the pie.

I do see that that is a process that I feel like a lot of developers are trying to figure out ways to make that more simple. You're hearing, like Woo Payments, "Well, we're going to add subscriptions." Everybody knows that this is a convoluted e-commerce situation. It's a profitable one though, and it's a very common model out there. As a matter of fact, I feel like subscriptions are even bigger than they've ever been. At this point, everything is a subscription if you think about it. You've got streaming services. You've got video, music, everything is a subscription these days, which is great because it means I probably pay a little less, just I pay for it forever. I don't think subscriptions are going away, but I do believe that that is where we're going to see a lot of concentration on trying to simplify processes. Or at least I hope so.

Ronald: I think so too. Yeah. That could be a big game.

Robert: I'm with you a hundred percent, Robbie. It's easy to understand your cashflow when you're on subscription basis, you know what's coming in, what's going out both as a consumer and as the business. Just something I came across was that India, for example, will be legislating how those recurring processing payments happen. I think that'll be an interesting canary in the coal mine to see how other countries tackle, maybe obfuscated terms of service and things like that. So wait. Why is this always getting recharged? How do I get out of this? What's the difficulty of doing it on a monthly basis and whatnot? Probably never here in America given our propensity just read the contract. And no one does, but gosh forbid, you try to actually delete your Amazon account, you literally have to talk to a person and it takes, I guess, a week or two to do that. But just like we're seeing legislation around privacy, I wouldn't be surprised to see, especially in Europe, and obviously now India, that's talking about it on how that happens without harming the consumer.

Ronald: Yeah. Do you think governments let's say, or tax bodies will get a sense, actually, this is such a huge market. We need to monitor this. We need to check these things. And you mentioned GDPR. Certainly the payment providers take on a much bigger responsibility of other than just taking payments, making sure it's secure, and pass on to the merchant.

Robert: I think that'll just be something that folks on the developer, and actually the actual checkout payment folk, need to keep an eye out for.

Security and decentralizing [21:30]

Robbie: In a way, in a longer term sense, this will become more of a security issue too, I feel like, because we are aggregating so many subscriptions into certain things. If you think about it, in my Amazon, I'm maintaining a CBS subscription, and maybe an HBO. I've got these different subscriptions through my Amazon service. But that means all of that data is being held at one point. When you've got a big source of data like that, it is going to be a target out there. And it's a target that could take down tons of shops, and apps, and things like that with one major DDoS hack thing going on there. There's the ease of use with consolidation, but there's also then you're giving a bigger target, I feel like. For security, you really need crazy security. And as we've seen, even the big guys, even Facebook, even people like this, they are susceptible to breaches.

Robert: I'm going to give a little shout out to Chris Lema who tweeted, I guess the other day or so, about a company called Rally that's looking to actually mitigate some of that with having distributed payment processing system. I'm not sure I actually quite understand the whole idea yet, but it's kind of decentralizing how all of that happens to hopefully avoid some of those hiccups. Theoretically, crypto can solve some of those problems, but we'll see.

I didn't even mention NFTs yet because they have a built in subscription model so that's what's interesting. You can actually license out an NFT and have that travel. You always get a commission. Talk about a very new kind of payment model that how would you integrate that into a store? If I buy a book and then I can actually literally resell it, or hand it off like I used to be able to do when I bought a book, and then the author still gets a piece of the pie? Interesting stuff.

A tough decision when choosing something that is future proof [23:25]

Ronald: Yeah. Do you know, I don't feel I'm getting a good grasp of the ecosystem of what it looks like when it comes to payments for WooCommerce. If you are a new merchant right now, where should you be looking at? Where should your research be focused on to figure out what is the right way to manage your checkout? Because if you go with one company A and you start with subscriptions, and you move to company B, at the moment that's going to be really difficult if you want to add other features, or connected to some sort of CRM, or even email marketing. Again you need all these different levels, but if you want to build something that's future proof for the next five years, this is not an easy decision to make.

Robbie: It's definitely not, Ronald. If people are new to online e-commerce, what we typically start with with those people is first of all, do they have commerce outside of online right now? And if so, do they have a point of sale system in their shop? What is that point of sale system? Is there an online offering that ties into that? So that's one of the first places we start. Now, if they're brand new, they don't have anything. They're going to start with an e-commerce store online. They have nothing prior to that. What we always suggest to people is keep it simple to start.

Now, you have to have enough offerings. We always tell people not just one payment method, if you can avoid it. Now, you can have one service that offers multiple payment methods, but let's try not to just have one single payment method just because you're cutting out a lot of audience when you do that. You have to offer. If nothing else, people just want the options. They expect the options. But don't offer 40 different ways to pay when you're brand new. Offer two, three, and then get going. Then as you grow, you can add more payment sources for people in options, but start simple is what we always try and get people to do when they're brand new. Especially like I said, if they have nothing they've done outside of this, then definitely start simple.

If they're using some sort of point of sale system, they've been doing this offline, then pattern what you've done, but maybe offer online another option or two that you haven't been able to, because then you've got an up-sale to your customers like, "Oh, you've seen me at the farmer's market, and you've checked out with Square. But now you can go on my website and you can also use this and this." So you've got an up-sale then to go to your clientele base. It's kind of a different discussion depending on whether they existed before offline, or whether they're just going to be a brand new online. Or at least that is the experience that I've had.

Robert: Yeah. Or it depends what you're selling.

Ronald: And where you're selling it, yeah.

Robert: If you're selling physical goods that are typically $500 or more, you might really want to make sure you add in a buy now pay later provider. Buy the card stuff, or are you going to get a firm or one of the other million ones, which I can't think of all their names.

Robbie: I would say it's popular, I feel like now, as one-click checkout is the payment options at checkouts. I'm seeing that way more, even on small websites. I'm very surprised.

Connecting with the user, the newer one-click technologies challenge [26:36]

Ronald: Let's go back to the new one-click providers on the block, PeachPay, as an example. If you were to develop something, you come to market, how as a plugin developer or company startup, how would you go about to present your product to the merchant? Because I realize that it isn't an easy task to get people to start using your product. There's a lot of competition. There's a lot of choice. People are confused. They probably stick to the safe bets. Maybe PayPal is still the preferred one. Stripe, WooCommerce Payments. But some of these newer technologies, they obviously solve a real issue, the one-click checkout. That what the new millennials expect. On one hand, you have the demand you have to supply. How do we connect it to?

Robert: The biggest issue that needs to be resolved is the trust factor. You're dealing with your money at some point. How do we know that this platform will work? I think for the new checkout payment provider companies, they need to just slowly make sure that that trust is there. PayPal has been around, boy, way too long but everyone knows it. They haven't had gigantic billion-dollar breaches, and that's why that works. But can they shift their business model to be as agile, as fast? Or Peach, or any of these other folks?

I'm going to use PeachPay because I know how their product works best. That's sitting on top of Stripe. If Stripe is a trusted solution, then all PeachPay need to do is reach out to the Stripe community and say, "Hey. You're already using Stripe for XYZ. We have a simpler one-click solution. Take advantage of it." That's one way to market your product out there. And then you got to be there where the merchants are and let them know that exact same thing. "So you've heard about Stripe for forever. Now we're Stripe++."

Robbie: And Ronald, the way I understood the question at first, too, was just the extension developers themselves. Do they start integrating in different payment processes? I'm going to kind of answer a little bit differently than Robert here. Let's just say I had a plugin. Let's use LearnDash, as we talked about Lema earlier. Let's say LearnDash. LearnDash can obviously work with WooCommerce. Or if you want to sell direct because you're not running a WooCommerce, then they do offer a couple of payment processes built directly into LearnDash, but you're going to have less options that way.

I do think that for plugin developers, especially if they're a smaller startup plugin, tapping into something like WooCommerce is a way easier way to go than to try and keep your own little add-ons for all these different payment processes, and having to keep up with the API changes and things like that. Then as you grow, then maybe you do add on a couple. But again, it's like what I recommend to clients too. Keep it simple. Start with the big ones. They're going to want Stripe, they're going to want PayPal.

Let's start there and you could add those into your plugins so that way, if somebody is using your plugin to do something, it's an LMS or whatever it might be, and it does need to sell something, but you don't need a full-blown store, then you could do that. But I still think starting out for all extension developers, tapping into WooCommerce. This is a way easier way to go so you don't have to worry about that. You can spend your time as a plugin developer concentrating on making your product as good as it can be, and you can let WooCommerce worry about making the checkout process as easy as it can be. You know what I mean?

Robert: Yeah. For sure you don't want to build this out on your own. That's why these services exist. There's a lot of risk, a lot of effort, especially if you're a smaller shop. You really want to have as many miles between you and the riskiest portion of the transaction as possible, but obviously wanting it integrated.

Product builders in the checkout space and marketing their solution [30:31]

Ronald: In terms of marketing your product. We talked a little bit about the technology and how to best get this off the ground and future-proof it. In terms of marketing, it's difficult to market it to merchants because you don't know who they are, where they are, what they read, and for them to make a choice to come to Robbie and say, "Hey, Robbie. I really need this right now because I feel I'm missing out." That's a difficult process to approach these motions. The other option would be the agencies, the freelancers, the educators. Robbie very clearly explained the process, the questions you ask, how to target because word comes. Maybe it was a way, but that's not going to happen probably for another year or so to speak directly with WooCommerce developers. So how to market if you are a payment provider?

Robbie: Good question. I think I see a lot of social media advertising happening. A lot because you can target so nicely with social media marketing. They can target people that are dealing either agencies. If they market towards the agencies, the agencies are talking to all the customers out there pretty much. You do have independents too, but the independents are going to follow groups on Facebook. They're going to be following different hashtags on Twitter and things like that to learn themselves.

Then you've also got, shameless little plug, but you've got training companies out there. If the training company does a course on setting up a shop in WordPress and what options do they show for payment processes to their students? If I'm a new payment processor, I may go, "Hey, could you also include mine when you're training people on how to set up shops?" I think education's always going to be important in there. And then of course marketing. But marketing to where those people are, or like I said, to the agencies that then are ultimately talking to the end customers.

Ronald: Yeah. What about approaching hosting companies?

Robert: I have two thoughts. To the original point, just as the first credit cards came out, you do have to broadly market to stores and say you do want to make sure you take this, even though we're going to take X percent of every transaction because it'll make it easier. And if people don't have enough cash, they have a credit card, they can swipe it. You can still get that payment done. So to get that recognition out there, you just have to broadly market. As Robbie said, there's social media around that, there's the million different now traditional digital marketing things that you have to do to get things done.

Robbie: The really cool thing to me is that it's much more affordable to enter into the commercial space with all these streaming video services. You can manage a lot of those yourselves so you're not having to go through the big marketing companies to get air time. You can actually manage your own commercials on networks now. That's actually changing that landscape a lot as well.

Robert: I mean, that's it. You just got to get your brand out there to the broader audience. On the hosting side, I think that's a thing that's slowly but surely happening. It will make sense for hosting companies as they build out more robust solutions to have integrated checkout payment processing as part of a package solution or whatnot. Obviously, you can do that with Wix and Wix Pay, or whatever they call it. You can also integrate other things, but out of the box you can get something.

WooCommerce is obviously headed that way as well, so you get WooCommerce Payments. Great. People may always want to differ from that. I see hosting companies that are going to try to put together solutions that solve specific problems with payment processing or relationships already created. No one's buying a shared hosting anymore because that's not solving a problem. No one's buying a hosting anymore because that's not solving a problem. The problem is, I have a salon so I need to take reservations. Book those online and get credit card authorization so if they ditch, I can still charge them 50% of that fee. Those are the questions people are asking. Those are the solutions they want. They're not saying "I need hosting for a website."

Ronald: Yeah. Interesting. We could be even seeing that as long you provide this payment method, and you do X sales per month, you get your plugins, your hosting and everything for free because there is, of course, an incentive there for both. I think we will have to have this conversation, the follow up on that, because there's so much happening. I'm much wiser thanks to both of you to see different sides of the perspective, of the table. But it is an ever evolving industry and trends, and I think we just seen the tip of the iceberg of what's happening. The possibilities, and yes, crypto is part of that. I'm very excited, and I'm pretty sure that whoever's listening to that will have their own opinions, and probably start a whole discussion around it. Maybe we've kicked started something. But I'm going to finish this Woo roundtable. Thank you very much, Robbie. Quickly, where can people find you and connect with you?

Robbie: or Robbie Adair on Twitter, Facebook, you name it. LinkedIn. Just look for Robbie Adair.

Ronald: I suspect you'll have a lot of payment providers saying let's do a training.

Robbie: Yeah. I hope so. I hope so. It's key. It really is key.

Ronald: It would be really interesting, yeah. That's really good. Robert, where can people find you?

Robert:, or easiest as Robert Jacobi on Twitter.

Ronald: Same for me. Just find me on Twitter. It's the easiest. Thank you both very much for this. Really a good conversation.

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