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Deep Thoughts from David Lockie and Jimmy Rosén on WooCommerce and Open Source

Deep Thoughts from David Lockie and Jimmy Rosén on WooCommerce and Open Source
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Earlier this year Dave Lockie and his company, Pragmatic, merged with Jimmy Rosén at Angry Creative. Their work with WooCommerce was going to focus on client support and maintenance.

But that is only part of the conversation. When you get a couple of agency owners from the WordPress space who have been around for a while, you may be surprised at what a deeper dive into WooCommerce, WordPress and Open Source can look like.

Trust me. There is a lot to unpack in this episode.

A Chat with Dave and Jimmy

In episode 79, Mendel and I talk with Dave and Jimmy about:

  • Their separate journeys to WordPress and WooCommerce with Jimmy starting in his dorm and Dave looking at a way to make a living to save up for his wedding.
  • What they have seen as big changes in the industry, how shops are built and the ways consumer interact— and a look into the future. Dave, a futurist, especially expounds on this one.
  • How they met, what brought them to merge and how it ties into their common vision for the future.
  • The decision to build up the strength of WooCommerce support and maintenance for their clients as they merged.
  • What each values when it comes to contributing to the community beyond working on core.

As I mentioned, this goes deep. We filled 50 minutes of conversation with our guests and the show notes only touch the surface. It’s worth a listen if you run a business in the WordPress or WooCommerce space.

Connect with Jimmy and Dave


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The Conversation

Mendel: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 79 of Do the Woo. I'm here with BobWP, the famous Bob, and a couple guests, which I'm really excited to talk to you. But before we get into it I want to see how you're doing, Bob.

Bob: Hey, I'm doing good.

Mendel: Yeah? Is it getting cold over there in Seattle?

Bob: Actually since we're on the ocean we're a few degrees warmer, but we've been getting down here. I think we got down in the 30s actually a couple days ago. So it's been a bit brisk. But I'm good with it.

Mendel: We're that cold too. I went out for a walk this morning and I walked back inside. Then I was typing and I noticed my fingers, they went slower than normal. So that's how I gauge the temperature outside.

Bob: I gauge it by the wind here.

Mendel: Awesome. Well, before we get into the show I just want to thank our sponsors today.

We've got WooCommerce.com. Now, Bob, I don't know what you're doing on the last Thursday of each month at around 18:00 UTC. It's super specific, but it's important, because you don't want to miss the monthly community chat on the WooCommerce core Slack channel. It's the last Thursday of each month at 18:00 UTC and it's a great way to hear the latest updates from the Woo Team, or the WooCommerce Team.

We also want to thank PayPal, who's a sponsor. Hey, the holiday's coming up and there's this cool new thing, maybe it's new, I don't know, new to me, that PayPal's doing, which is called Pay in 4. So you can have your clients pay in four installments, giving your customers another option for their purchasing power during the holiday season.

So go visit WooCommerce.com. Go check out PayPal's Pay in 4. Make sure and check out the core Slack channel chat. It's fun. It's cool. You'll learn a lot. And with that I think we'll get into it.

Meet Jimmy and Dave

So we have with us Jimmy and Dave. Now, these two guys, these are simple names, okay? They are simple names, but they are not simple people, because they have a lot to share with us. You can't see it, but they're both saying, "Ah, I don't know. We might be." Anyway. I would love for each of you to introduce yourself. This is kind of a rare thing where we have two guests on the show at the same time, and you're going to see how their lives have kind of weaved themselves together. Maybe they didn't want them to, but they did. So, Jimmy, Dave, welcome to the show. Jimmy, you want to start out and introduce yourself?

Jimmy: Yes. Of course. First of all, thank you for having us. Great pleasure. I am Jimmy Rosen and I'm the CEO and Founder of a company called Angry Creative, and we are a, well, WooCommerce and WordPress Specialist originally based at least in Sweden.

Mendel: Excellent. Well, nice to have you, Jimmy. And we're going to go more in-depth with you in a second. Dave, introduce yourself. You're newly Dave. You used to be David, but now you're Dave.

Dave: I like to keep things fluid.

Mendel: I like it.

Dave: So I'm Dave Lockie, or David Lockie, depending on the day apparently. I'm Founder and CEO of Pragmatic. We're a U.K. based agency, specialist in WordPress. And I'll leave the story there for now.

Mendel: Excellent. Well, welcome to the show, you two. Bob.

Bob: Yes.

Mendel: I know you have a pressing question for these two, and it's a question I've heard you ask many times before. But I'm going to step out of the way and let you ask this question.

The Journey to WordPress and WooCommerce

Bob: Okay, cool. Well, we'll head back to Jimmy. And essentially what we want to hear is a little bit of your journey, it can even be to WordPress, but then how you ended up getting involved with WooCommerce.

Jimmy: All right. Like for me personally? So I found, kind of by mistake, WordPress when I was in my dorm room. This was like 05, 06, something like that. It was really early on, very early on. It was a simple enough CMS that I could hack basically with my, well, novice PHP skills I guess. I did that and I did all kinds of other freelance gigs. But in 06, 07, I started only doing websites as my main freelance gig. This was like during my university studies. So it wasn't full-time. Then in 09 I graduated and had to become an adult real fast more or less. I had to get myself a job, and that during kind of a similar situation to now, during a raging depression in the economy. So that was fun. But I stuck to it, and in 2011 I did my first hire. From there I've been working hard to make this a great firm since then.

Bob: So how did you get into the Woo space? Did it just come naturally, or did you segue into it because you wanted to get into the eCommerce part of things, or how did that play out?

Jimmy: To be honest, first off, in the beginning it was simple websites and then more advanced CMS websites. But I think it was in, what was the year? It was pretty early on that we did our first WooCommerce site. It was 2013 I think. We did a subscription service, but most of our gigs were WordPress only. But then that kind of snowballed and we found out that, well, the clients have a lot higher purchasing power and definitely they stick with you. In the CMS space its kind of a race to the bottom, if you're a tech firm at least. You get less and less of the gigs where you can put lots and lots of hours into just perfecting it. The space for that is really crowded. So it just came natural. Like our WooCommerce clients, they really need skilled people to help them grow and to keep their main business, while being their website, alive and working and optimized and all of that.

From there just all of a sudden we more or less only had WooCommerce clients, and a bunch of really, well, larger CMS clients for like multinational companies. But other than that, that's a kind of the client in itself. But the rest of them, more or less WooCommerce. In a sense a CMS site, it helps you trade in terms of what it gives the client, it's those leads basically. But eCommerce gives you a lot more than that. So it helps you trade a lot better. And since it's open-source you can modify it. We have clients selling everything from funerals to phone gadgets to whatever. It's a big space and with the power of open-source you can sell anything and create any kind of custom checkout flow, more or less, making you sell anything in a nice way to the end clients.

Bob: How about you, Dave? How did you get into this?

Dave: So I guess it's pretty similar to Jimmy. I was already graduated and working on some startups with some friends out of university, working on promoting clean tech, fuel cells, hydrogen, that kind of cool stuff. But way back before there was any money in it, which takes a while to figure out. But along the way I learned from some really good developers how to do some basic coding. This was all in the classic ASP days.

Then was getting married and I needed to save a bit of money up for buying wedding rings and stuff, because we were doing a startup. So we were all pretty poor. I remember, I'd done a couple of just like from-scratch HTML sites, and then, you know how it is, you suddenly need to go back and just change something in the header, or just change something in footer and you suddenly had to add in like nine different text files. I was like, "This is stupid. There's got to be a way to template this stuff." And sadly there wasn't a good way to do HTML templating.

So I got down the route where I had to find the CMS, and up until last week in fact, I've always been like a Windows guy, and basically WordPress was the only CMS I could get running. WordPress is also very good for what I call Brute Force Coding, because you can just like be a monkey with a typewriter and eventually it'll work. PHP's very forgiving and very accessible. So I started making some websites for friends and family, doing that.

Eventually I realized I could make more money doing that than I could in my day job. So long story short, I quit that and started freelancing full-time, got super busy. I think it was probably when we were like a micro business, like maybe two or three people, and the golden rule was always like, "Never do eCommerce with WordPress. You do pretty much anything else, but just never touch eCommerce." Then Jigoshop came along, and Jigoshop was the first version of eCommerce for WordPress that just kind of made sense.

It wasn't like totally forced into WordPress, it felt like a natural kind of fit in lots of different ways. So I think we even did like one or two projects with Jigoshop. I was always like a big child themer. That was like my WordPress way. I think I started with thematic, and I must've built like 50 different sites with thematic. Then I started using a WooThemes Canvas. So I was already super familiar with Woo and I knew their code quality was really good and their support was good as well. And I remember meeting the team for the first time in Leiden. I think that was the first WordCamp Europe. The team were really cool as well. So we just kind of naturally fell into using WooCommerce when we had eCommerce requirements come through.

We never seem to get the nice easy projects, the, "I just want to sell caps, or T-shirts", and they're like, "It's small, medium and large." We'd get like the, "I want to build a personalizable book where I want people to be able to upload images and write their own thing." So we always used to get these insanely complex WooCommerce projects. Like we pretty much built Airbnb with WooCommerce at one point. I think we probably only charged about 20 grand for it as well. So ever since we've used WooCommerce as one of our trusted stable of plugins, and we've done all kinds of exotic things for clients large and small. So it's been a really good part of our journey. Although, it hasn't been as cool as it has been to Jimmy until recently.

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What’s going on now and in the future

Mendel: So I want to go back to those Jigoshop days. If we can think about what eCommerce was like then and what eCommerce is like now, and where eCommerce is going in 20 years. Now, I know as a fact that Dave is a futurist I think in a way. I don't know about Jimmy, but if Jimmy and Dave are buddies then I'm guessing that Jimmy probably has some of that in him somewhere.

But, Dave, we can start with you, and where have things been and how have things changed? What have you noticed as far as big changes in the industry and the way shops are put together and the way consumers interact with shops, and then maybe where you think things are going to end up?

Dave: So I'm going to zoom out a little bit first, and then I'll zoom to the future. So going back. Trade's basically the foundation of humanity as we know it. The necessity and attraction of commerce is what's allowed people to overcome the fears of different groups, different countries, different tribes, whatever it is, to work together and create almost unimaginable value. Even the Roman emperors would blush at what people have access to these days, even the most modest household. And more than anything trade is what stitches together human society.

It creates mutual interests, and that makes corporation and trust overpower conflict and fear. And the need for that, I'm sure, is never clearer than at the moment. So today eCommerce is an incredibly important part of global trade. It allows anyone to sell anything to anyone else at any time. So I believe this kind of power and freedom is vital for our continuing mutual prosperity.

That trade is one of the reasons that there is much less war now, because it's just not in each other's and different nations' interests to go to war, because they have too many vested trade interests. And open-source is a really important part of that. It's vital to oppose this increasing centralization of power and protect individual freedoms in this sort of ever more connected world.

That's why we love WooCommerce. It's the most powerful, the most popular open-source eCommerce platform. And by supporting every client to achieve success with WooCommerce, we are contributing to global prosperity and harmony, and I really believe that. It's nothing short that. As to where eCommerce is going, I think there's some really interesting macro trends. One, which I think is super powerful is the whole kind of No-Code movement. There's just some really incredible tools coming out with those, Airtable, or Workflow, or Bubble.

We really must pay attention in the WordPress space to what's happening now, because we're definitely losing deals to No-Code, and these aren't necessarily small mom-and-pop store deals. Obviously Shopify's been super successful. But some of these, they're kind of enterprise gigs where actually they can do everything they need to with Webflow. So No-Code's really important as a trend.

I think ALA, it's just like this massive gaping void of different technologies and potential impacts, both good and bad, on eCommerce, but I think out of that you start to see things like personalization, you start to see things like integration with additive manufacturing, 4D printing, so that it's not so much a case of, "What have you got to sell other people?", but, "Can you build what other people want? Can somebody come to their site and tell you what they want and you can make it for them?" So no code, AI, and I'd say personalization's sort of a pretty big micro trend within that as well. Because you're right, Mendel, I love dreaming about where things are going, and before I ramble on too long I'll hand it over to the man.

Mendel: So we can probably dissect every sentence of that and turn it into its own essay, because there's a lot there. There's a lot packed into those statements. So thanks for that, Dave. What about you, Jimmy?

Jimmy: Well, obviously, especially with the coronavirus, I think we've taken a huge leap into digitalization for what was bound to happen, had to happen real fast, and everyone is changing the way they do business basically. These days we're getting people at hardware shops, "We have to do eCommerce, because otherwise we can't manage." And basically we have kind of a productized version of WordPress, and that's basically like a theme, a set of plugins and a concept of how to do the Woo I guess, that we sell as a fixed price starter project, and we ship that off to many of the simpler clients. And we can just sell that, boom, fixed price, "Here we go."

But building on top of that, we obviously do customizations, and that's our main business, doing customizations. What's happening now is that everyone is having to question their business model, and it's not only the dreamers that Dave built a 20K Airbnb for. Sorry to say it, but, Dave, you got hustled.

Dave: That's happened a lot to me. Don't worry.

Jimmy: It is what it is, yeah?

Dave: But to be fair, that client, although we didn't make a great profit out of that project, if any, I recently read an article in like a mainstream newspaper about her and her business is a success and we built the first version of that. So whether or not there was much profit in that project, it created immense value for her and in turn everyone else. I always find that, no matter how painful a project is, as long as you get it past the post then you're creating value, and that's what keeps me in the game I think.

Jimmy: Yeah, man, that's good fun. And just that kind of project is what we're seeing popping up everywhere. So how can we deliver value to our clients? And small mom-and-pop stores, they can't compete with the really big businesses. They have to have business models that lift other things than just price. Then can they use Shopify? Well, maybe not. Then they have to customize, and how can they do that with Shopify? Well, they can't. So Open-source, boom. There you go.

So there's been an immense increase in the amount of clients that are turning to Open-source, because they can't go on proprietary platforms. Obviously like everyone is making a buck here, especially the big platforms that ship standardized stuff, but we in the Open-source community, like customization is our bread-and-butter. We don't charge for licenses. We charge for customization. If you can't be on a super standardized product, it's a nice thing to take a standardized product and customize it, and that's what we do.

The move to a partnership

Mendel: So, Jimmy, the two of you made the decision earlier this year to do business with each other, to combine forces and to create a stronger agency experience I'm guessing by merging your two agencies. And the name of the two agencies, Pragmatic and Angry what?

Jimmy: Angry Creative.

Mendel: Angry Creative, okay. So Angry Creative and Pragmatic, which these are kind of also oddly opposing ideas. Anyway. So I'm curious, and then I'll give it back to Bob to ask some more questions, but I'm curious how the two of you met, and then clearly you have some common vision for the future and some common tread on your tires from the past. But you met. How did that happen, and then how did you eventually come to combine forces?

Jimmy: I think we met at some WordCamp. It was the usual after party thing I guess. There might have been a stiff drink or two involved, might have. But we're never late to the day after when the second day of work happens. We're never late. Just to be clear. That does not happen to us. We're there eight sharp, boom, no matter what happened the day before.

Anyway. That's basically it. Then Dave invited me to a group of like-minded individuals. So it was basically a group of WordPress entrepreneurs where we exchange ideas and, "What works for you?", and, "What do you feel about this?" It's been a really great group. Obviously this year we haven't really had the opportunity to meet. But that's where our friendship was evolved I'd say.

Dave: Yeah, that's definitely my recollection too. Then to pick up the story, the lockdown threw a lot of challenges in a lot of different ways to a lot of businesses, and it became pretty clear to me that this was a longterm thing and that eCommerce was really a very sensible place to be. With almost all other avenues of trade closed, eCommerce just seemed like the obvious place to start paddling towards that, plus some other things like LMS, which Angry Creative already did. So I think basically how it happened was we had a client come in, like a client inquiry, and they're like, "We've got this high volume eCommerce site, it keeps going down", and I knew that. So Jimmy's kind of underplaying the productization that they've done, and it's really sophisticated down to an infrastructure level. So it's a very integrated product.

And we got to the point a couple years ago where if it was like scaling eCommerce we would always give that lead over to Angry, because they could do a better job, and I can't take somebody's money if I think we're going to do a second rate job. So I basically phoned Jimmy and I was like, "Look, I've got a lead for you." He's like, "Well hey, you should just sell your business to me." I was like, "Well, actually maybe there's something in that."

So we started talking and basically figured out that together we could solve a lot of our combined visions as well as accelerate the journey of our focus away from the more volatile CMS project space to the far more stable and fertile, definitely in the current climate, WooCommerce retainer and sort of itched the improvement space. So it just seemed like the right thing to do. Maybe it would've happened eventually anyway, but coronavirus is definitely an accelerant there.

Focusing on support and maintenance

Bob: So that kind of involved the whole thing that you had mentioned in the press release when you first announced this, that you were moving in the direction of support and maintenance? Then that probably wasn't just WooCommerce, that's probably WordPress and WooCommerce. Was the real motive behind it, so you could expand or move in that direction, and were you doing much of that, either one of you, before that, or how did that evolve where you said, "Okay, this is the direction we're moving in"? Dave, why don't you take that?

Dave: Because Jimmy was already there, right? So Jimmy didn't have to move, he just had to plan to help us move very quickly to what they were already doing. So I'd say that the overlap, the Venn diagram, I love Venn diagrams, what we did as businesses was pretty much 100% overlapped, but it was about the waiting. So where we were kind of 80% project-based and 80% CMS-based, Angry were almost the opposite. They were more like 80% WooCommerce, almost 80% retainer. And when we look at the impact of COVID and lockdown we see, "All right. If we ignore some sectors got absolutely hammered, then project losses versus retainer losses were much worse in terms of pipeline and projects being put on pause." So it was a much more fragile sort of commercial outlook. Plus WooCommerce being a sort of growth space.

I'd like to think that everything's around the Pragmatic way of doing things, which means that together we are building a business which is different together, but in terms of focus and business model we're paddling far more over to Angry's way of doing things than they're coming this way.

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Bob: Anything to add there, Jimmy?

Jimmy: We, over the years, haven't had a very data-driven way of doing, well, business I guess. We've set up a business that we're very keen to improve ourself and we're very good at measuring things internally. That means we can see the value optimization, not just with our clients, but also within ourselves. So that's why over the years we've moved towards a model that looks like this.

If you do a CMS-type build, only the top tier clients, they will let you take the support, let you do that, do the maintenance and have a nice operation going on. But most of these gigs, you go in and you do the job and then like, "Okay. Thank you. Bye. Maybe we'll see each other again." What can I say? It's like being young and hooking up with people in a bar basically, and what we're doing with WooCommerce is more like growing up, having a steady relationship where you have a true relationship.

So we help them grow, we help out with their maintenance, because a CMS-type client will be like, "Yeah, whatever. If the site breaks, it breaks. I don't care that much, and it's a quick fix anyway", basically. You can make a good business there, but that has to be mainly automated. You have to be like ManageWP or have something like that in order for that to be a valid business model.

But for eCommerce you have to have that stability that you as a business vendor, you know that you can call us 24/7 and if your site has a problem we'll have people working on it 24/7, 365 days a week. So you can count on just pushing that traffic through your site, and that's the kind of responsibility you need from a partner if you're pushing business down an eCommerce funnel. We had huge publishers that we work with, and they were like, "It doesn't really matter if the site goes down. As long as the content is still there an hour from now. Eh, stuff happens."

But for an eCommerce vendor, they measure that downtime in minutes and loss-per-minute more or less. So for them it's really important to have that. Open-source has a problem, and that's basically, "Who's responsible?" So from a client perspective, you are given a lot of free stuff. You get free updates, free features and all of this free stuff, and you see just stuff are pouring in. But like, "Who's responsible for that really?" That's you as a client. There's no one else responsible. You can blame your agency as much as you want for like, "Oh, it should be you that ...". That's why a lot of agencies, they do the project and then they run, because they don't want to end up in that situation where they have to take on that responsibility.

So early one we figured out like, "Hey, let's be that kind of business. Let's solve that problem in Open-source. Let's put a fee on like a monthly cost, and no matter what we'll cover it. If there're crazy bugs, we'll cover it. If there's this-and-that, we'll cover it." That way, sure, it's a premium service, but if that gives us also incentive to like if there's a crazy bug in the core, we actually have the budget to fix it. We like to call it Sustainable Open-source, because we actually take money from our clients that we can use to help support the Open-source industry. And sometimes we do. We'll help fix a couple of really serious things in WooCommerce, and a lot of the times it's working with plugin authors, and that can be a bit harder though.

Contributing beyond core

Mendel: So you've built sustainable businesses that contribute back to the ecosystem when it makes sense. You've worked your butts off to both make great agencies yourselves. It sounds like you've collaborated with other like-minded agencies, people that have been coming up, people that are more experienced than you and people that are in your same lifecycle. And now you're collaborating together, and it sounds like the future is extremely profitable and bright for this joint venture. It seems like you have it all, and I guess my next question is, what can people do, agencies like you, or organizations in general in the Open-source world, what can they do to give back?

Specifically I'm thinking about Grant for the Web, right? But there are other places that people can help to contribute and give things back when they finally reach that level of success where they're comfortable, but they still have interesting challenges that don't keep them up at night because they need to buy their next loaf of bread, but they keep them up at night because they enjoy the challenge, and there's something interesting there. So what is there on the web that can help contribute back to Open-source more than just core contribution? And not just. Core contribution is a big deal, right? But what do you think, Dave?

Dave: So I'm going to come back to Grant for the Web if we get time, because it's super interesting. I'll tell you one of the things that really is on my mind a lot at the moment is helping to create opportunities for people, supporting people to learn a trade and to make sure that those opportunities are open to people from all sorts of different backgrounds. And we do a lot of work in ensuring that they're an equal opportunities employer, especially from a newer divestee perspective.

I think one of the things that I love about the WordPress space is that it's actually really a very inclusive community, but there have been some sort of recent notable exceptions to that. But I think in general it's an incredible global community and everyone, whether they're young or old, whatever color they are, whatever background they're from, it feels like much more of a meritocracy than many of the places that I see around the world.

In a lot of ways I go back to the WordCamp Europe in Seville where the feeling was like the values that have helped us build WordPress and WooCommerce as a community, "What else can we do with this? How can we take these things out into the world and help make the world a better place?" And I do think that our community is very special in that way.

So I guess we focus a lot on that, right? I'm lucky that I get to spend a lot of time thinking about the future and how that's going to impact us and our clients in our community, and I hope they're giving back some of that as a contribution personally. But I think probably the most important thing we do is, outside of supporting our clients, is creating opportunities for people to have interesting rewarding valuable careers where they can help other people, as well as contribute to this Open-source project, which is a legacy of us all to future generations. Then if you think about it, there aren't that many things in life where you can do that for the greater good of people.

Mendel: Cool. What do you think, Jimmy?

Jimmy: First off, I'd say what's most easy is being engaged in events, meeting other people, creating interest for what we do. I'd say that's a first, and that's pretty easy. You just show up in one form or another. Just online or not, whatever. You just show up. Showing up, that's the first step. But from a larger perspective, obviously it's having that sustainability built into your business model, right? Meaning that actually not taking all of this for granted. So I live in a small town called Norrkoping in Sweden, and like 10 years ago there were basically no other firms doing WordPress. It was only me from my dorm room basically. So that was it. That was the WordPress community in this town, period. But what happened over a couple years there was that WordPress gained traction. Actually I started having meetups and then WordCamps locally. Then one-by-one the other bureaus, they just switched from their home-coded proprietary CMSs.

Even the companies that only engage in proprietary CMSs started up a WordPress section. It just exploded everywhere. Then all of a sudden there were 150 people locally on my events. I was like, "What? It was only me, and I was alone in my dorm room. How did this happen?" So just engaging and speaking out on like how things should be done. Obviously all of these firms now, they are part of the WordPress community, but they're not fully engaged in it, because they're not at that point yet.

You have to make a commitment to being a sustainable Open-source business in order for actually helping Open-source. And you can do it in several ways, but I think what's most important as an entrepreneur is actually having that sustainability in your business to actually seeing that. There's a lot of people doing this, and we shouldn't only hope for people to give you free updates, we should actually have them on payroll to do those updates. That's what makes sense, and that would create sustainability in the long run.

I think more companies need to do that, first of all, because it's the right thing to do. Second, in the long run, A, you'll have better people, and B, you'll have a better product and everyone will benefit. But also if you want to stick to doing WordPress then you kind of have to, because when you're a big enough firm you have to start pushing that time into like pushing the product onto where you want it to go. and certainly it will be hard for a business of roughly 70, that's where we are now, to push that to make as big a dent as maybe automatic, obviously.

But we're 1000s and 1000s of people working with this, and if everyone would build into their business model we would also have a business standard basically. Like 10 years ago no one did maintenance over here. Now everyone in the Swedish scene sells maintenance. Everyone does that. We were probably the first who did that, and we've been very open with how we do it and how much it costs roughly.

It's all on our website. I can go to any competitor and just check out like, yeah, that's basically my pricing there that they just copied and put on their site, but they're free to do that, because that creates a business standard, and if we all had that standard and all think like, "Okay, let's have a sustainable Open-source business. So this is what we charge usually, and we will make a commitment to actually ... If we find a problem in one of the plugins that we use for like our 200 websites, whatever, then we'll commit to actually pushing a fix upstream."

That's how businesses should be designed, and if I can help other businesses be designed like that, that's great, because I will benefit, they will benefit, and our community will benefit, because it will become a standard. And we need standards, because as a community we're fractured.

Some people do this, some people do that, and Open-source get a lot of shit from like the larger firms saying that basically, "These guys aren't serious. Who can be serious with Open-source?" And if they have huge funds they can like, "Yeah, whatever. We'll just go with this super proprietary stuff, because they are professionals and these Open-source people are not." So if we have a common business standard and we take that responsibility and we help the community, it will help our businesses and it will also help everyone pitch to clients that Open-source is big business, Open-source is the real deal, and we can do really great stuff. You don't have to use these proprietary products.

Bob: Well, Mendel, I'd say that we have shows that have gold nuggets and we have shows that are a freaking goldmine. So I think we kind of hit the latter here with this one. Wow. A lot of stuff to digest, and a lot of great information. In fact, I'm going to spend some time on the transcript just taking in more of this. Of course, I won't hear those wonderful accents, but I can listen to it as well.

Well, I'm going to quickly thank our sponsors one more time before we shoot out of here. WooCommerce.com, as Mendel mentioned. Check out the community chat the last Thursday of every month. I believe it was at 18:00 UTC.

And do check out PayPal's Pay in 4, a great way to spread out four payments over every other week. And come holiday time you may need that to budget in for those few extra gifts. So check them both out. Jimmy, let's start with you. Where can people connect with you on the web?

Connect with Jimmy and Dave

Jimmy: You can email me at jimmy@angercreative.SE, and that's my main email. And I'm a very private person, so I'm not really on social media.

Dave: I'm more open. I'm @DivyDovy. D-I-V-Y-D-O-V-Y, for reasons lost to the mists of time. Mainly on Twitter. Also on Instagram. If you want to talk work then basically Twitter or D@Pragmatic.agency. Always super happy to hear from anyone and keep the conversation going. So look forward to hearing from you. And, Bob, Mendel, thank you so much for having us, guys. Thanks for doing this podcast and keeping the good word of the Woo out in the world.

Jimmy: Thank you for having us, it's been great.

Bob: All right. Well, let's call it a wrap then, and we are out of here, you can check this out on your favorite pod app. And until next week, Do the Woo.