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Contributing and Introvert Survival with Eric Amundson from IvyCat

Contributing and Introvert Survival with Eric Amundson from IvyCat
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Eric started with HTML and CSS websites in 2002, but found his way to WordPress and WooCommerce when they evolved from the web. But his true passion is talking about being an introvert and how he has learned to enjoy meetups and WordCamps. Also, because Eric is a firm believer in contributing to WordPress, the conversation easily moved into that arena.

A Chat with Eric

In episode 68, Brad and I chat with Eric about:

  • How he does the Woo and, having started with CSS and HTML, when WordPress and WooCommerce came into his life.
  • His journey as an introvert and the challenges he has met.
  • Where he found that sweet spot for introverts via Meetups, as well as a great discussion among the three of us around the being an introvert.
  • Contributing to WordPress and WooCommerce.
  • How contributing can go beyond just coding.
  • His experience of transcribing on WordPress.tv
  • Stepping out of one’s contribution comfort zone

Connect with Eric

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The Conversation

Yes, this is the transcript. But not in the traditional sense, transcribed word for word. We do not speak as we write. Often the flow of transcribed content is hard to follow. So I have taken it a few steps further by seriously editing, at times, the conversation and even using my editorial freedom to clarify some points. So enjoy.

Brad: And we are back with another extra exciting episode of Do the Woo, episode, number 68. Bob we're chugging away aren't we?

Bob: We are chugging away. I almost forgot to unmute my mic. Sorry everybody, there's a lawnmower that's deciding that I was going to do my one recording for the week and he waited out in this truck for the perfect time.

Brad: We're chugging so fast, Bob can't even unmute fast enough. That's how quick we're going. We're on episode number 68. We've got a great show ahead of us, but first we definitely want to thank the sponsors that help make the magic happen.

First off is WooCommerce. Maybe you've heard of them. I hope so. That's what we talk about on the show. Head on over to WooCommerce.com. They're our community sponsor. And we want to give a quick note that at Wednesdays at 1400 UTC in the WooCommerce commerce community Slack developers channel and get your questions answered, share challenges, questions, and maybe even go help people if you're able to. So check that out. If you search WooCommerce community Slack, you can sign up for it. It's free. And it's a great way to get some support from fellow WooCommerce developers and shop owners and all that great stuff.

Just want to thank CheckoutWC.com, which actually replaces your WooCommerce checkout with a nice, beautiful, responsive, and conversion optimized design. So if you're struggling with conversions, you are trying to increase those conversions, check out their services and see if it's an offering that might be able to help.

And also last but not least, GoWP.com, white label maintenance plans and content edit requests to help you hand off all that low value work that really eats up your day. An great group of people over there. And they're ran by a gentleman by the name of Brad. So I fully support any company that has a Brad involved, which I do. So go check out, GoWP.com. How'd I do Bob?

Bob: You did great, not too bad. I told you you'd eventually get it down pat.

Brad: Oh, we're at episode 68. So hopefully by a hundred, we'll be rock solid.

We've got a great show today. I'm excited to talk to this gentlemen we met a few years ago back at WordCampUS at a nice dinner with some friends. Eric Amundson. Welcome to the show Eric.

Eric: Thank you.

Brad: Did I pronounce your last name right? I usually remember to ask pre-show and I forgot. So I hope I got it right.

Eric: No that's all right. I answer to all sorts of things. Technically it's Amundson.

Brad: Technically, that's what we're going with. Eric Amundson. Welcome to the show, Eric.

Eric: Well, thank you.

How Does Eric Do the Woo

Brad: Why don't you just tell our listeners how you Do the Woo.

Eric: How do I Do the Woo? Well, I have a little agency called IvyCat and we build custom WordPress websites. And a lot of those are WooCommerce websites or event management websites. And yeah, that's how I Do the Woo, is really working with customers to make either new WooCommerce websites or to supercharge their existing WooCommerce websites, so they're higher performing.

From Early HTML and CSS, to WordPress and WooCommerce

Brad: How did you first come across WooCommerce. It's always fun to hear how people landed on the platform that they prefer, in this case. I'm curious if you've been using it for years, if you used other platforms and gave it a shot and really liked it. How'd you end up on WooCommerce?

Eric: Sure. So I think my company actually sort of standardized on doing WordPress sites in 2010. But I started back in 2002, just doing HTML, CSS stuff. There were not a lot of great real eCommerce platforms back then. The one that we really used a lot at the time was called Shopp, S H O P P. And we implemented that on a bunch of sites and then actually built a plugin for it to deal with Washington State sales tax.

And then of course, Automattic bought WooCommerce. and that gave WooCommerce a big shot in the arm. There was the whole Jiggershop thing. And so WooCommerce just became the platform to be, that was huge. And just like WordPress itself, so extensible that it had a really active community of extension developers. And so it became for us, easier to work with. And the market became bigger a lot quicker.

Brad: I remember Shopp, I believe the gentleman that ran it, his name was Jonathan Davis.

Eric: Yeah. You're exactly right. Yeah. I met him at a WordCamp San Francisco years and years ago. Super nice guy. And I think he moved on and somebody else took over. I'm not sure.

Brad: Yeah. I believe it was acquired or sold. Prior to Shopp, it was really the only real player in the WordPress space. If I remember correctly it was WPeCommerce, which was clunky at best. Shopp was really the first eCommerce kind of plugin that I had seen or used that was more polished. And actually had a business model around it to help fund it and grow it. And it was a good platform for the time that it was. We're talking, like you said 2010, pretty early on as WordPress adoption goes. But I remember Shopp, it was a good plugin back in its day.

Eric: Did WP eCommerce a few times too. And like you said, it was a little more painful at the time.

Brad: Yeah. To put it nicely. But it worked. As the platform matured, the options needed to mature and really WooCommerce took off. Like you said, once Automattic bought it. It really was kind of the de facto eCommerce platform with the company, like Automattic behind it is, it's going to be hard to compete with. But there's other options, but we certainly lean towards Do the Woo and that's why we love this podcast. So definitely appreciate you sharing.

The Challenges of Being an Introvert

Bob: Now I've known Eric for a while because he formerly lived in the Seattle area where we had the meetup and WordCamps. So I've known him through several meetups and WordCamps.

This takes it a little bit away from WooCommerce. But you are an advocate of introverts and developers. And I mean, we're talking WooCommerce, of course, there's going to be plenty of those. I know we can always get back into kind of the more WooCommerce centric talk here. But I remember you did a session on it as well at a WordCamp. You have gone to a lot of these so how have you conquered that challenge?

Eric: Oh, that's a great question. I think it's so interesting that probably within the last three, four years, maybe even five years, there's been a lot more conversation around mental health and introversion and imposter syndrome and that sort of thing in the WordPress community. Which I think is really neat because I don't think it's the exception. I think developers in general tend toward introversion just by nature of what they do. Not that everybody is. But I do think when you say people are either an introvert or they're not, I do think there's a little bit of a spectrum there. And some of it is learned behavior. So when I was a wallflower in high school, but as time went on, I started to learn and develop tactics to be able to deal with extroverted situations.

A friend of mine in Gig Harbor used to tell me that his wife was an extrovert and they would go to a social situation and she would walk out just jazzed and ready to go and pumped. And he would walk out as an introvert feeling like, "All right, I got to take the rest of the night off, man. I've had enough of people."

And so anyway, to answer your question, I think my default mode is to try and blend into the background and not make waves. And some of that is just the way I was raised and not wanting to look stupid or stuff. So you and I met, I was trying to think about it. It was really early on when the WordPress Seattle meetup started. Back when we met in the basement of this place called Tech Stars, do you remember that?

Bob: Yep.

A Comfort Level at Meetups

Eric: It was like this dark brick area with little overhead lighting. And sometimes it was standing room only in there. One of the cool things about that meetup was that there was usually a main speaker that would talk about some topic and there were great speakers, because there was a lot of great talent in the area.

And then it would break off into these little groups. And there was, if I remember how they were divided, users and bloggers in one group. Then I think they call them devsigners in another group. Folks who are like developers, designers, but not full on hardcore developers. And then there was the full on hardcore developer group. And I knew that's where I needed to be because that's where I had the most questions. So I would go sit in there and it was super funny because there'd be like 10 men and women sitting around looking at their phones, staring at the ground, not talking to each other.

And I realized that someone had to break the ice. So I would raise my hand and say, "Hey, I'm not too proud to ask a stupid question. What do you guys do about X?" And that was usually all that it took and then everybody would open up. "Oh, I was wondering that same thing." And then someone would throw something out and then the conversation was just great. So my journey as an introvert ended up trying to be an icebreaker when I can. And I try to recognize that for a lot of introverts, it's debilitating almost to go into these situations or it's really, really scary. And I think I said even in that talk that I gave, Bob.

Being an Introvert. A Missed Opportunity

I told the story about, I lived in Gig Harbor and I would drive to Seattle 40 miles away, something like that to go to the WordPress Seattle meetup. And I think there was more than one time where I had made that drive and then sat in the parking lot, just really scared about going inside. Like, I don't know I'm going to walk in, everyone's going to look at me. I don't have anything to say. I shouldn't really be here. And I turned around and drove home and that was just a terrible, missed opportunity.

I would make excuses like, I love audio books, so it's time on the road. Woo. But truly it was me not reaching out. And what I've learned over the years is that there's a lot of people that feel that way. And sometimes all it takes is smiling, shaking hands. And now it would be like bumping elbows or waving your mask. But anyway, just breaking the ice.

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And now, back to our conversation.

Is Brad an Introvert?

Bob: Yeah. Brad, were you ever introvert?

Brad: Yeah. I kind of classify myself as an extroverted introvert, which is kind of weird. But for me, it's purely based on the situation I'm in and which way I lean. Obviously in a more comfortable space with people I know, I'm much more extroverted. But if I walked into a room and there's 50 people and I don't know anybody, I am much more likely to kind of sit in the back and observe and just kind of take it in.

And I don't have a problem, I'm okay with that. I like to kind of soak in what's going on. Soak in my environment, listen before I speak a lot of times, it's just kind of my nature. But in the WordPress space now that I know a lot of people. When I go to these events, I see a lot of people I know. And it's just immediate comfort for me, but it definitely was not like that initially.

Because I was in a very similar situation to you Eric, where I would go to an event, I wouldn't know anybody. And I would just kind of sit there and I wouldn't really interact. I would get some stuff out of it, but not nearly as much as I could have if I actually just opened up a bit. So I also am the type of person that if I'm uncomfortable with something, I will usually try to force myself to go in head first. And that's actually how I started speaking at a lot of events because I wanted to get more comfortable at these events. And I thought, what's the most terrifying thing I can do, I'll get on stage. Which is terrifying, especially the first number of times that you do it and you still get butterflies even after you've done it a lot of times and you feel very comfortable with it. You still get nervous. But I think that also helped me overcome it a bit.

It's an interesting topic and I agree, I think more people lean towards introvert in the web and development, design than not. It's one of the greatest things about WordPress community. It's so open and welcoming.

As you start to meet people and learn that, you realize that really you can talk to anybody in this community and they want to talk to you. Nobody's going to tell you to go away because your question's silly or they don't have time to talk to you. I think just once you really understand how opening and welcoming this community is, it can really help break down some of those barriers that you might've put up on your own that aren't actually there.

Eric: Right. I think sometimes the only barriers to engaging are just the ones that we put up. I heard this years ago, and I think Andrew Nacin referred to the WordPress community as a duocracy. If you were interested in doing something, you were part of the community.

And one of the ways that I felt like I can break the ice a little bit was through contributing in ways. Whether that was just going to meetups or WordCamps, or actually trying to write documentation or do support or things like that. It was a way for me to get in and meet a few people at a time and become part of the community, which gives you confidence and you start feeling like, "Oh yeah, Brad's right. This is an opening, an accepting community. And I can belong here.”

No One Believes Bob is an Introvert at Heart

Bob: Yeah. I find it interesting because I've told people that know that I'm an introvert at heart. That's where I came from and they go, yeah right, Bob. They don't believe me.

But it does take time. I go back as far as the early nineties when we started our business and I started joining chambers of commerce and probably some of the people who are listening don't even know what they are. But you'd have networking events and you'd sit around a table, breakfast network events, and everybody would have to stand up and introduce themselves. Give your elevator speech. And I hated it. It was like I was sweating. And all I could think about is when my time came, I couldn't even listen to what anybody else said.

I'd just sit there and watch them as they got closer one by one and then I'd have to do it. And I just started doing it more and more. I started speaking early in, I don't know, 2008 or 2009 or something. And yeah it was something that you just have to do over and over. And I still have to push myself on it sometimes. I'll step back and revert to introversion or whatever you want to say.

And I not only tried to cure myself of it, but I started making an effort to help others. In the sense that I would see people at events that were obviously very, very introverted and shy. And I thought either they want to meet somebody or they don't. So I go up and just approach them and talk to them a little bit. And you can always get a feel like if they are looking at you like, go away. I don't want to talk to you. So I would. But other times I knew they were incredibly shy and nervous about meeting people. So I talked to them a little bit and then I'd go around and start introducing them.

Just a short story,. There used to be this local, well-known conference each year by Chris Pirillo. If you like to go and hang out with a nerdy, geeky crowd, it was for you. I went to it and I wasn't particularly that nerdy or geeky, and I went to an after party and it was in this bar in Seattle, down in a very dark basement.

And there was this young, I call him a kid because he looked like he was 12 years old, but I know he wasn't that young. Because he was in the bar. And he was standing over against the wall and he just kind of looking frantic. So I thought, well I'll go up and just start chatting with him. And I did. And we had a great conversation for about 20 minutes. But the funny thing is, at one point he looked at me, he said, "This is kind of freaking me out, this whole place. Because everybody's so old."

I looked around at everybody else and thought, "My God, what's he think I am?" I think I said something to him like, "Oh, don't worry, we don't bite." A lot of these people are cool.

But it's a very interesting thing to grow yourself out of. And it does take time and practice and takes having to force yourself to do it in some situations that aren't particularly comfortable.

Biting Off Bits of the Introvert Using Meetups

Brad: Yeah. You can kind of bite off small pieces too. Local meetups are a great way to dip your toes in because it's less intimidating, there's generally less people. And nowadays, I mean, you could even dip your toe in virtually with all the meetups being held virtually and even at WordCamps, to an extent.

So the idea of a few hundred people event is terrifying, then try something a little bit smaller and get comfortable with that, especially your local community. Because you automatically have a connection, your local. You're in the same general vicinity, you probably eat at the same places. And most of them are the same people even. So there's definitely ways you can kind of ease into it and grow a bit as you get more comfortable.

Eric: Absolutely. I think that's one of the nice things about doing local meetups. I organize a few, one is the South Sound WordPress meetup and another one, which is the Redwing WordPress meetup in Redwing, Minnesota. And reframing them in my head from being these terrifying things where I'm going to meet strangers to these occasions where I get the opportunity to help people or to see if I can assist.

And I think I did that early on with contributing, just at one point I was on the docs team and writing documentation. It just felt like I was helping out, I was contributing in some way. And so that helped me over the terror of meeting new people.

Contributing to WordPress and WooCommerce

Bob: Speaking of contributing and I know we've been talking about being introverted, which it's not WooCommerce specific, but you can be introverted and still Do the Woo, I think. There is that correlation.

But as far as contributing to WordPress and WooCommerce, I know you've had some experience with that. I know Brad has as well. Do both of you want to touch a little bit about what people should look at. If they want to contribute to WooCommerce, not that you necessarily have all the answers, but just guiding people towards that a little bit.

Contributing is So Much More Than Writing Code

Brad: Yeah. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that Eric. I definitely have some, but I think it's an interesting idea. Because a lot of people assume to contribute is writing code. And that is obviously a part of it, but that is certainly not all of it.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when we talk about the WordPress ecosystem as a whole, there's all sorts of ways that you can contribute. In fact, I cut on it today. I think a jumping off place for the contributing teams on WordPress.org is Make.WordPress.org. And I think there are 18 teams now, 18 separate contributor teams that contribute in some way. From documentation, to support, to training and TV and all sorts of things.

And years ago, a gentleman named Andrew Woods and I started the docs meetup in Seattle. And we'd do it one Saturday a month where we get together and write documentation for WordPress.org. And it was interesting because it was a great way to get into the community. People would show up and think, Oh, I don't have anything to contribute. But honestly, if you've been using WordPress at all, you have something to contribute. Whether that's just giving feedback or helping somebody else.

Brad: We at WebDevStudios, we do the Five for the Future initiative that Matt proposed years ago and kind of resurfaced it recently.. But we've been doing that ever since. And it's our official way as a company to give back to the project. We're very fortunate. We get to do some amazing things on a platform at WordPress, that people spent an untold number of hours building over the years.

So the least we can do is give back 5% of our company time. So one day a month, our entire company contributes to WordPress core. And of course, our entire company is not all developers. We have project managers, we have account managers, we have a number of people that don't write code. And the ways they contribute are things like support forums, answering questions, or maybe helping to organize a local meetup or a WordCamp. Or like you said, documentation, the thankless job of actually writing documentation.

Eric: I know, it's the worst.

Brad: Yeah. Or a lot of what I've seen lately is they are helping transcribe videos on WordPress.tv. Which is a tedious process, but it's watching a presentation and transcribing it. So you have to start it, stop it, type, rewind, start, stop, just go through the whole presentation transcribing it.

Again, it's giving back to WordPress, it's giving back to the project. So there are just so many different, interesting ways you contribute beyond just writing code. I think it's a really cool topic because I think just by default, people think, well if I'm not a developer, how can I really help? But there's a lot of ways. Like you said, if you use WordPress, you have some knowledge somebody doesn't have and you can help them.

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Now lets head back to the show.

Transcribing on WordPress.tv

Eric: Yeah. You mentioned that TV. And that is like, when people ask me, "What are the easiest ways for me to start contributing?" I think one is support. Because like you just said, if you've got some experience, you've got more than somebody else.

So getting on the support forums, there's usually something that you can answer. And my early victories on the support forum were someone would say, "I just can't make this thing in my sidebar look right." And I would drop in and give them two lines of CSS and they would think I was a hero because I made it look right. So that fed me and I knew I was doing something good.

So I think support is a good one, but TV is another one that you pointed out. And one of the things I love about contributing to the TV team is that if you're new to WordPress and you're trying to learn about a subject. WordPress.tv has literally thousands of videos from people from all over the world about all sorts of WordPress related subjects.

So you can find something you're interested in, like search engine optimization, content marketing, developing. I know Brad's going to do a talk in a couple of days on developing your first WordPress plugin. I don't know if that'll be on WordPress.tv. But any way you can go watch these presentations, and transcribe them. Which is super helpful to people,. You are basically providing subtitles or even translating into different languages.

I'll tell you my little story about WordPress.tv and the first time I transcribed. I guess the first one I transcribed was a presentation from a gentlemen at SiteGround. I think it was Daniel Kanchev, who gave this presentation on moving WordPress sites. It's like 45 minutes. And it was really detailed, transcription takes a while. So don't start with a 45 minute video.

And then the next one I did was I transcribed a presentation that I had given at WordCamp. And that was super humbling because having to watch yourself and then listen to yourself over and over again, I'd have to stop and type and then correct. And it was so humbling because I got to hear all of my own verbal ticks and my stops and starts. And eight sentences together joined by the word so. But it was a way I could contribute. So TV is a great way to get started. Even if you think you don't know anything, because there's all sorts of great topics out there that you can help make more accessible to the community by subtitling or translating.

Brad: We're contributing right now. Right. Bob? Just the knowledge that is being talked about and shared on this show is contributing to the overall project. We're sharing valuable information with people that would like to listen to the show. So I think you just got to keep that in mind. It's not about just the code or the how things work. It's contributing to sharing knowledge is how I look at it. Sharing knowledge that you have around WordPress and the project with the community, with the public. That to me is contributing to WordPress.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. I'm kind of fond of saying, you contribute just by showing up. Just showing up at these events, WordCamps, meetups and trying to help somebody else, telling your story, that's contributing.

Bob: Yeah. That's kind of how I felt the last decade or more with my content, even on my blog, even though it isn't actually documentation.

Going Outside Your Contribution Comfort Zone

One of the questions, and I don't know if either one of you have thoughts on this. But when somebody, let's say a developer, looks at it and says, "Oh, I can get in, contribute code, this is cool." I think it would be cool, but it probably would be also a challenge to get them to try to expand a bit and contribute in other areas like documentation or anything to get a feel of other parts of WordPress. It's like you get stuck in this bubble and code is great and that's your comfort level.

But it seems like there would be other opportunities for them to say, "Well maybe I'm going to stretch that comfort level a little bit and get a taste of the other side." whatever that other side is. And I guess I'm just wondering if you ever see, or if you've known people personally, any contributors that do a little bit of bouncing around to get a flavor of different things versus just saying, this is what I'm really good at and I'm sticking to it.

Eric: Yeah. That's an interesting question. The first person who came to mind, I don't know if you remember Kim Parsell. She was a wonderful contributor to the WordPress project. And she and I were on the documentation team at the same time. And that was back when there was a push for... I don't know if it was just a continued push, but it was for having documentation in core. She worked a lot with the core team to try and document things in line within the core code. She bridged that gap from a user to a developer. And she had to talk to developers and put them in a different way of thinking so that they could really document this in a way that it made sense to the end-user or to other developers. She was a really special lady.

Bob: Yeah. She was special for sure.

Brad, do you have any thoughts on that, as far as your own experience?

Brad: I think it's always the point of developers versus users. There is definitely a value to a dev interacting with users more often. Because it's easy to get siloed into just writing code and pushing features, but not really understanding how people are using those features. And many times, and this is true with client work as well as just WordPress users. But many times, if you talk with users, if you listen to their frustrations or areas that just don't make sense to them, it's very eye-opening because you'll learn things that maybe you didn't see.

It's very easy to get tunnel vision as a developer. It's just like when we build a website, when we go into our QA process, we bring in developers that were not on the project, actually QA the site. Because it's easy to overlook something really obvious if you've been staring at the same website for three or four months while you build it. Fresh set of eyes are going to catch it immediately. We've all been there.

Like somebody calls out some mistake we made, maybe a blog post we wrote, or a piece of code or a presentation. And we're like, "Wow, I have the word "the" in there twice, like I've looked at this presentation a million times before I gave it. And I literally have the word "the" in there twice. Why didn't I catch that?" It's because you were staring at it for so long.

Just a different perspective and that's probably true just in life in general. But having a different perspective and hearing feedback. I think is always a good thing.

Eric: Yeah. And empathy, being able to put yourself in that user's shoes.

Bob: Yeah, exactly.

This was fun because we've been off in a couple of different topics, different areas. We never know where we're going to go with this. Right, Brad?

Brad: You know what, I just buckle up and see where Bob's driving us. So away we go.

Eric: Beep beep.

Bob: Yeah. We often chat about WooCommerce in-depth, but also there's a lot of fringe stuff going on too. And I know any developer can relate to the being introverted or not. Or if they're in that middle of the road. And contribution's huge, which I'm sure we will probably talk about more in other shows as well. But yeah, I think this was a great conversation.

Let’s go ahead and close out with what's going on with people or if they have anything exciting to share. I'm going to let Eric go first if anything's going on or just something on his radar that he wants to share with us.

Eric: Well first, thanks for having me on the podcast. I've enjoyed talking to you guys. And I'd like to thank you both for your contributions to WordPress. Because Brad, I've read your book many times. I bought it for developers and they used it as a reference. And I've listened to you talk at WordCamps and that's been a big help to me. And Bob, your constant participation and facilitation of conversation in the community is very commendable. And for being an introvert at heart, I just give you lots of props for doing this.

As for announcement, WordCamp Minneapolis is this Friday. I'm just South of Minneapolis, but you can attend from anywhere. Tickets are still free. Just have to go to Minneapolis.wordcamp.org/2020. So that's Friday the 21st and I think that's got some good sessions. So if you don't have anything shaking, come to Minneapolis virtually.

Brad: Good opportunity to meet some folks virtually. And then when the in person events start up again, you'll be familiar with some people, you'll have some friends you can meet up with. So especially if you're on the introverted side, it's a good opportunity to see what it's all about.

Bob: Brad, let's revisit that talk about that live coding a plugin

Brad: Yeah. So thank you Eric, for the reminder. Because yes, in two days I'm doing a live coding session, no pressure. Over on Post Status. So basically it's about an hour long, free webinar, join up and I'm going to be live coding a plugin, your first plugin. So it's going to be fun. It's going to be informative if you've ever been interested in building a plugin or have dabbled in it, but looking to take it a little bit further. I'm going to be there with the coauthors of our latest book, Professional WordPress Plugin Development, second edition.

So John James Jacoby and Justin Tadlock will be with me. Along with Corey Miller, facilitating the conversation as I'm writing code. And they're probably critiquing everything I write down. But should it be a fun time, we'll see how it goes. I don't think I've ever live coded in front of an audience, virtual or in person. So if nothing else, that should be entertaining.

But you can check that out. I've got some tweets on it on my Twitter @WilliamsBA or over at Post Status. I think it's post_status on Twitter. They have some links to it too. But this Thursday, the 20th at 2:00 PM Eastern time. So it'll be the day the show comes but a little bit later in the day. So hope to see you over there.

Bob: Very cool. And I just might drop that, Woo 4.4 came out, minor update. The interesting thing I was just going to bring up about it is the centralized coupon management area, which is now under the marketing space. And what they've done, if you do go in there and you haven't been playing around with beta is that your coupons are available. The link in the side, under WooCommerce as they always were. But they're also going to be duplicated under marketing. So you'll be able to go in, I believe in the advanced settings and toggle it off once you're new to or I guess familiar and used to the new location. So you can keep it in the old spot and have it both places. Or you can toggle that off.

A few other odds and ends with that one and then blocks. Block 3.2 came out with dark color support, more control over payment methods and enabling order notes, on both the cart and the checkout block. So a couple of things that came out today, which is Tuesday, a couple of days before the show comes out. And yeah, just moving along with the releases on the WooCommerce end. So I think that about does it.

Just want to thank the sponsors once again, GoWP.com. You might want to check out their Facebook, GoWP Niche Agency Owners group. They have some cool stuff going on there, they have a Friday happiness hour. You can get on there and talk to people and bring in your challenges. Check that out.

WooCommerce.com of course, always good stuff going on over there.

And CheckoutWC.com. That checkout page which is a critical point, make it user friendly and conversion friendly.

Connect with Eric

So Eric, where can people connect with you on the web?

Eric: Good question. I'm on LinkedIn. Just Eric Amundsen. If you look me up, my email is just [email protected] So if you have any questions or need anything, ping me.

Bob: Cool. Excellent. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to be on the show. I know as an introvert facing Bob and Brad is like a challenge. Right, Brad?

Eric: No, it was a pleasure.

Brad: Introvert or not. It's probably a challenge facing us.

Eric: No, no, thank you guys so much. I appreciate it.

Brad: Yeah, thanks Eric. This was great.

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