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Mary Job works full-time for Paid Memberships Pro. But she also serves the Nigerian and larger African WordPress and WooCommerce community through her site HowDoYou.Tech. Oh, and she has also built a community for WordPress and WooCommerce as well. In a lot of ways, Mary knows how to Do the Woo and in this episode we learn them all.
A Chat with Mary Job from HowDoYou.Tech
In episode 89, Brad Williams and I talked with Mary about:
- About her journey to WordPress and WooCommerce
- How she connected with the community in Africa and specifically, in Nigeria
- What kind of eCommerce growth has she seen amongst her peers
- The biggest challenge that faces store owners in her part of the world
- How important training is when running a WooCommerce business
- What Mary feels is the first things that needs to be said to clients when they want to start building their own WooCommerce site
Of course, each one of these went into a deeper conversation and if you want to learn about the passion behind a community, you need to listen to this podcast with Mary.
Connect with Mary
Brad: Welcome back to another fun episode of Do the Woo. I'm one half of your hosting team, Brad joined by Mr. BobWP. You know him, you love him. How's it going, Bob?
Bob: Good. And it's good to have you back Brad, you had some stuff going on and then of course we had the break. I kind of forgot what you look like and sound like, so now it's all coming back.
Brad: Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome for a little break from me, but I'm back. Let's just say I'm glad 2020 is over. I'm excited about the new year and all the possibilities that it could bring.
So, I'm very excited about this episode number 89, and we're getting up there, aren't we Bob? But before we get into the episode, before we bring on our awesome guests, I want to thank our show sponsors as always.
So first we have PayPal. Maybe you've heard of them. Probably have, if you're selling stuff with WooCommerce. Definitely check out PayPal. We want to touch on their eight and four service, which if you're not familiar, it's super easy. It allows your customers to buy something from your store and pay across four payments in equal payment every two weeks. So it makes it much easier for some of your customers to maybe buy a little more expensive item or maybe buy multiple items that add up to a little bit more because they can spread out those payments.
PayPal takes all the risk on that. You get paid upfront. And if you're already using PayPal, you just have to turn it on. So, it's a pretty amazing feature. We actually had one of the PayPal execs on, just been a couple months ago, but if you want to hear more about it, check out some of our older shows.
And also WooCommerce 4.9 is right around the corner. In fact, it's slated for, I believe January 12th, is that right Bob? Which is next Tuesday.
Bob: Yeah, I believe so.
Brad: So be look out for that. RC 1 is out the door so now's a great time to test it out, especially if you have your own WooCommerce site or if you are supporting somebody else's site it's a good time to get in there and start kicking the tires. It's much more stable than the beta. It's very close, release is imminent within the next week. So check that out.
There's some cool updates coming like the updated blocks, plugin as well as a lot of additional enhancements, performance fixes, and even a dashboard update, I believe. So, go check out 4.9 RC 1 over on woocommerce.com.
And with that, let's bring on our guests. So today, we have a really fun guest Mary Job. Mary, welcome to Do the Woo.
Mary: Thank you, Brad. I've heard a lot of exciting things about this show and I've listened to some so I'm happy to be here.
Brad: Well, hopefully it was all good, exciting things that you heard and not the bad things that we hear about Bob's though. Bob. It's a new year. I'm teasing and got to put a few jabs in.
Bob: Yeah, really.
Brad: So we always like to ask our guests when they come on the show, how do you Do the Woo? How do you work with WooCommerce? How did you get there? Maybe tell us a little bit about your story and then obviously about the business around that you work in.
Mary: Awesome. Thank you again, Brad and Bob for having me on your show. So how do I Do the Woo? This is interesting. So I'm just going to go over a brief background of how I got into WordPress because first you have to know about WordPress before you discover WooCommerce which is interesting that is.
So I got into WordPress full time in 2015, and back then, I didn't even realize you could do so much with WordPress, I just thought it was a writing platform where you could write stuff, that was all. And little by little, I found myself diving deep into building sites with WordPress site, which is exciting at the time because I was still looking for a job in human resources department and it failed.
I didn't think that I would be working online or working remotely at best. I thought I was going to work physically in an organization. So discovering that I could build site with WordPress was new for me. So in Nigeria at that point, if you wanted to have a store on your site, it was pretty difficult because you have to cough up a lot of money to be able to connect a payment gateway with your site. I mean, you had to pay a lot. And I remember then I always wanted to sell stuff online and I would be, I can't afford this. How am I going to do this? Then I discovered you could use WooCommerce and then we had this payment gateway company, Paystack
You may have heard about them. Stripe bought them. They came into the picture. Then one of my colleagues built a plugin for the Paystack gateway. So, it didn't cost much to go online and have this store and be able to sell even as a small business. So that was exciting for me because it meant the average person selling on the street can easily get themselves a website, have WooCommerce on the site to sell and then collect payments on their sites. So that is how I started Doing the Woo.
Last year, I got in touch with Jonathan. We discussed how we could build the WooCommerce community in Africa. And that was also exciting because I've been doing that with WordPress. And WooCommerce and WordPress are like scissors, you can't have one without the other. The same community that powers WordPress also powers WooCommerce mostly.
It was exciting because I was interested in that because for me, one of the things that drew me to the community, because I volunteer a lot with the community, the WordPress community that is, is the fact that you're able to meet up with like minded people all around the world without having to physically meet them. And last year it was very hard on everyone because of the fact that we are grounded in our homes. That was very tough. But thankfully, we could still connect virtually with everyone.
In fact, I think in a way made it possible for us to be able to connect with more people as opposed to physical limits in them, because now all meetups were online, all events were online, so you could easily meet up with people from all of this. So these are the two ways that I Do the Woo, one by building websites powered by WordPress, WooCommerce, Paystack for Nigerians. And the other way, be part of the community and seeing how we can grow WooCommerce in Africa.
Brad: That's awesome. You made some great points. I mean, I love the fact that you mentioned how WordPress can help. Helps a lot of us connect via WordPress and through the community all over the world. I think what we're doing right now on this show is a perfect example. Bob's out West in the Northwest. I'm here in Philadelphia and you're in Nigeria. So the fact that we're sitting here talking about WordPress. I mean, it's still kind of blows my mind when I take a step back and think about the cool technology that we have available to us.
And not just the technology to do this podcast today but also the technology that we're talking about, which is WordPress and WooCommerce. And the fact that there's such a global community, as you said around it. I mean, I will never get tired of thinking about and hearing about that type of stuff because it's so neat to see how far we've come with WordPress, with tech, with the web, with technology and just connecting the whole world. It's fascinating. Don't you think Bob?
Bob: Yeah, I certainly do. It's one of the great things about podcasting. I think it's a great thing that we are connecting with people, especially in these days, online. Everyone you can talk to no matter where they live. I know in past podcasts I've done it numerous times and I never tire of it. So that's probably why I love podcasting so much.
Now what I'd like to do, before we get into building with WooCommerce and what you do there is talk a little bit about community. Can you give us a little insight on how you built your community in your region. Was it WordCamps, meetups, just reaching out and finding like-minded people. Can you tell us the backstory on that?
Mary: I think one of the driving points for me, or one of the key motivating, one of the things that lead me to really want to have people to connect with over here, who did WordPress was the fact that I was getting into WordPress from, I mean, I was coming from a non competent background. I had no idea I would walk in tech, so to say. So I remember I just asked myself one day, I said, but there has to be other people around me who are doing WordPress in one way or the other that I could ask questions instead of going to Google. I mean, there has to be people I could physically meet up with. So I found myself on make.wordpress.org. I always tell people that I wasn't told about it.
In the process of Googling to see where can I find a community, I found myself on make.wordpress.org. And then I remember that was looking at all the options, all the different ways you could contribute. And I was asking myself, I don't know what call is. I don't know what CLI is. I don't know what design is. And then I saw committee and I was, okay, wow, I think I could fit in here. And that's how I got into the community really. I just told myself, even if I don't know about the software in that I could start learning and I could start meeting people. And then we just started doing meet ups and it just went wild from there because I guess there were a lot people out there like me who were also looking for people to connect with. At a point, they always were using it wasn't... It didn't contain us because we're always so many at the meet ups.
We had to break our meetups into five sections in a day. That was how much people showed up. And then the colleagues over at central were, "why don't we just have a WordCamp because you're already... At meetups, you have over 70 to a hundred people showing up. So just have a WordCamp and that's how we had the first WordCamp and the second WordCamp. We couldn't do a WordCamp last year because of Covid. But for me, I think what drove me was just, because I always have this idea that I can't be the only one looking for a certain thing in a geographic region. There has to be other people who are looking for this. And so how'd you find those people? You find them by putting the word out there so that even my mom knows what WordPress is.
My daughter knows what it is. Everybody around me knows what WordPress is. Anybody who sees me, "Oh yeah, Mary, you are into WordPress." So I think it's about finding a champion to carry the news around everywhere you go. And then other people will begin to, "Oh yeah, you know I also use WooCommerce, I also use WordPress, let's talk about this" WhatsApp status, Facebook, I mean, I opened a Twitter page, whenever we had meet ups, I would broadcast it everywhere. And funny enough, it's WordCamps that got me going to East Africa for my first time. I've only been in West Africa. It was even WordCamp that got me to South Africa. That was the first time I traveled out of West Africa. It was through a WordCamp.
That was for me eye opening because I remember at WordCamp, Cape Town. There were so many women. That was something because back home it was usually six of us that are females and then you have 70, 80 guys. That was incredible. So going to WordCamp Cape Town seeing all these women and all this, I mean, old, young. So I thought we could do something like this back home. I'm sure there are people like this also back home. So I came back home with that thoughts and we just moved from there.
Brad: So we have BobWP and we have MaryWP it sounds like. So you say Mary WordPress and people know who you're talking about. That's awesome. I love hearing that. The story around WordPress and just the community. I mean, a lot of people will ask, what's one of the best things about WordPress and so many of us say the community and while it sounds maybe a little cheesy in a sense, it's absolutely true because it's a very inclusive community and a very opening community. And I strongly believe it's just the nature of open source. If you want to contribute back to a software project in some way, then there's something about you that wants to help other people. It's just in your DNA in a sense. And that's why I think the community is such an amazing community.
Brad: It's so inclusive because of that, because we all just want to ultimately give back and make a better WordPress product, and build amazing websites and help a lot of people. And we want to help each other do it. And that's that's how a lot of us got into WordPress and met people in the industry. That's how I got started. It was going to a WordCamp and meeting people. And I'm so glad that the community is as strong and vibrant as ever.
And it's really fun to hear stories like you just shared in other countries because I don't get to hear those as often. And your kind of perspective, and like you said, seeing more women at a WordCamp kind of was eye opening, which is really cool. It's diverse, it's inclusive. It's an amazing community and something I'm really proud to be a part of. I think we all are.
Mary: Yeah, I am.
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So offering those payment options is good business. Did you know that 64% of consumers surveyed say they are more likely to make a purchase at a retailer that offers interest-free payment options. And 56% of consumers that responded agree that they prefer to pay a purchase back in installments rather than use a credit card.
Well, this seems like a no-brainer to me. Clients can grow their sales and get paid up front with no additional risk or cost.
All you need to do is download the PayPal Checkout extension on the Marketplace at WooCommerce.com. Just head on over, click marketplace and search for the PayPal Checkout. Suggesting that to your clients will certainly open up sales opportunities for them.
Thanks for PayPal for being a community sponsor at Do the Woo. And now back the conversation.
Bob: I'm going to bop over from community to building and specifically, more geographical, because it's always interesting. We're all in our little areas and working with Commerce and doing the online stores. It sounds like you have a lot of touch points with people over there. You're obviously hearing a lot in the WordPress space and people that are doing it.
So this is a two part question.
Have you seen more growth in e-commerce and people wanting to get online more because of this last year. I'm looking at it because that's what we're hearing from everybody. And secondly, geographically, do you have any challenges or do store owners have specific challenges there?
Mary: Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. I think last year, because when the lockdown started, we initially we thought one month, two months, everything would die down and then it stretched to a whole year and a lot of people had to move over to selling their products more online than offline. And in some physical stores were doing, you have to order online and then they have to deliver, you can't come to the restaurant or to the shops to buy the item. They have to deliver to your door. So, definitely. I remember that we had this client from the previous year who wanted a WooCommerce store and we were practically giving her the reason why she should get an e-commerce store because she sells very well physically. And we were the one chasing her to make sure the site is up and running.
Last year, she came to us and said "I think I still have left over money from the previous time." I'm, "no, no, no, you don't. You have to start all over again." So I think it made people realize that you have no choice. If you have a physical so you have to balance it with an online store. If you don't have a physical store, the best way to sell these days is an online store.
So definitely a lot of people are moving their businesses online, even over here. And then over here, it's more difficult because off the top of my head, I would say about 75% of the civil services, the government services are offline. Because they tried to move them online but for so many reasons, they don't want the adoption to work. But I think last year has made people realize that it's better when people process these things online than when they have to physically come to the office. That kind of open because of COVID. Because they would lose revenue from not, I mean, if I have to come to the office to process my driver's license, for instance, then you'd be losing money compared to if I could process it online and then come over to pick it up.
So a lot of people are moving around. This year people are eve taking it more seriously because this year is uncertain, we don't know what is for you to happen yet this year. Everybody's on edge, let's us get our online platforms ready and set to go just in case something happens and if nothing happens, well, we still have bought stores, physical and online to work with. So we're good. And then the second part of your question was challenges for people with WooCommerce stores. I can't speak regional wise. I'll speak only for Nigeria. The Nigerian market is just different. If it works in Ghana, it won't work here. So I'll speak only for this region.
Bob: Yeah, we have to realize that Africa is kind of big, so it would be hard to speak for everyone there.
Mary: Yes. I think the major problem here that I see is to deal with logistics and delivery, the connectivity. For instance, as I am here, I'm not in Lagos, which is a major city. I should be able to sell my mug to somebody in Lagos without having to go through the stress of going to the park, looking for a driver, giving it to the driver, it's unpredictable. The time the driver is going to get to Lagos, the person might not get the item today, the item might get lost in transit. So I think logistics is a major problem. The connectivity, being able to send an item from here to say, Kano, to Abuja or to Enugu. For me, that's a major problem.
We have Paystack and the likes for the payment gateways, but the shipping is still missing a lot. There should be a plugin I could put on my WooCommerce store to be able to ship from point A to point B where all I have to do as a merchant is go drop off the item and the company handles the shipping, they track the item, that is still missing.
So if you sell online right now, you have to figure out a way to handle delivery by yourself. Well, except you used the other options, the ones like the Konga and the Jumia. Those are the ones that are equivalent to the Amazon. Where you have different people selling items. So that's not WooCommerce and that's not WordPress. So that's a problem for us right here, right now.
Brad: That's an important challenge. I mean, for obvious reasons, but just thinking, we've talked about the pandemic a bit and Bob and I have talked on the show and past episodes about how it's really shifted, and you kind of mentioned it to Mary, but it's shifted the mindset for business owners of online first. And then, brick and mortar, or at the very least making sure you have a site to compliment your brick and mortar store. And then if you don't have a store obviously online.
But being able to ship, not just to outside of Nigeria, but outside of the country to other countries, really, I mean, that really opens the door to being able to sell worldwide, obviously. So not having a really easy way to implement a shipping carrier that could support that even at the local level, but certainly at the international level, that's a tough thing to be missing. And I'm sure it's a tough challenge to solve, which is why it's challenging, but that's tough.
Brad: Because just being able to, like you mentioned the difference between trying to do an online store, what was it, five years ago, six years ago or so. And now where there's an option for a nice payment gateway that's reasonable, there's WooCommerce, there's WordPress, it's all relatively inexpensive. And you're just paying when you make sales, mostly other than some basic hosting and things like that is the shipping. So, that's an interesting challenge to tackle.
Mary: Yes it is.
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Thanks to WooCommerce.com and their support as a community sponsor. Now let's head back to the show.
Bob: Now let's head back to what you are doing and your own site.
Mary: I currently work full-time with Paid Memberships Pro. We also Do the Woo there because we have a WooCommerce integration, which allows you to sell a membership on your site as a product. And when I'm not doing that, or first, when I'm not doing a PM Pro, I'm doing How Do You Tech. How Do You Tech is a company site, is my company site, howdoyou.tech. And my personal site is maryjob.com, but I'm not selling anything on my personal sites.
Bob: I notice on your site that you have, building sites, training and support. I'm just curious, how much of what you do is training?
Mary: When I was starting to learn how to build sites. I noticed that a lot of people, when they're building sites for people, rather a lot of people that I knew were building sites that I went to for advice, they would usually host the sites for the clients, buy the domain for the client. And if the client wanted to do something on the site, they would still have to reach out to them.
And I did not want that when I start to build sites for people, I wanted to be able to teach people how to manage their sites. As I am building the site, let them know how to log into their site, how to change a simple picture, how to add a product, which is why we say that we don't just build a site. We also teach you how to manage the site. Should you now decide to pay us for support, we would more than happy, be willing to support you, which is what we do us.howdoyou.tech. Because I find it not empowering when I build a site and I just handed over to the client and they probably don't do anything to it, they just leave it there and make it informational when it could be so much more.
I always tell people, your site can be so much more if you can master how it works. Even if you have to employ somebody to manage it for you, then you know what is expected from that person. So they don't just sell crap to you. You know that this is how you do backups. It's just that I'm outsourcing it to you to do it for me. But I understand how my site works. When you understand how it works and it makes more money for you or it brings in customers for you. If you don't know how to do all of those things, I consider it wasting money, you're just throwing money away if you're not learning how your site works. At least know how to log into your own site. So we bonded training. When we charge a client to build the site, we bonded the training with it.
So as I'm building the site, most times I'm recording my screen and make it into short, sharp videos just for the clients. But we're hoping to not have to do that anymore with the Academy site, which we launched last year, although it's not online. We're hoping to put up short courses for people, really short videos, how to log into your WordPress website, how the product works.
I know there are YouTube videos, but if we have it on our site, or if we have it hosted on academy.howdoyou.tech we can easily push that to the client and say, everything you want to learn about how to handle your site can be found here. It's free. You get membership, you can access it that anytime you want, you can ask us questions if you are stuck. So training is a big part of what we do.
Bob: And you're creating that comfort level already with those clients. So instead of sending them off and they're thinking you are you sending me off to some 21 year old that's going to talk over their heads and they can't understand what they're talking about. They already worked with you and are much more comfortable learning from you as well. So that's a great offer..
Mary: That's one thing that I've noticed in the tech space is that it's not deliberate but a lot of people who are extremely techy tend to use more techy words when they are explaining to clients. When all the clients wants to hear is just simple English. They don't want all the jargons. They can't keep up with that, it's like you're putting too much, they have to run a business and now they have to deal with the jargons, no.
Brad: There's a fine art being able to speak to your audience. We talk about this a lot at our company and even in our meetup and our local communities and stuff, we talk about this, just speak to the audience. So if you're in a very technical setting and you're speaking a technical topic then great, geek out and talk tech and whatever. But if you're training someone that is brand new to WordPress, don't start talking to them about the GPL license and what that means. They don't care. Here's how you log in. You don't tell about the drama of Gutenberg and how many years it took to get live, they don't care, just tell them how to use it.
Mary: No, they just want a useful and a functional site. All of that you're stressing the client.
Brad: And I love that, what you mentioned of, if you understand how things work, ultimately you can make more money. Even if you're not necessarily the one doing it. I think that's a very good point because you're right, that you don't have to necessarily be the one doing those backups. But as an owner of that online store, that business, it's important that you understand what a backup means. Hopefully you understand how to run a backup if you want, understand how to get to those backups and just the concept of what that means and why it's so important, especially for a commerce site that has transactions and why that needs to be more regular, probably more real time then, once a day or once a week. So I love that point because I think it's extremely important.
Doesn't mean you have to do it as a business owner, but you should understand it. Because you're going to be paying someone else to do it. And if so you don't even know what they're doing and you're paying them to do it. How are you going to know if they did it? Oh, that's awesome. I love the training aspect because I think that's as much a reason why WordPress is as popular as ever is because of the intuitiveness of it. But it isn't as intuitive as we all think because all three of us are in WordPress every single day.
So we take things for granted because that's all we look at. It is intuitive though, compared to some of the other platforms, in my opinion. But that, and just the educational factor of, like you said, you're doing training. There's a lot of great information out there.
There's videos or books, there's all sorts of stuff. But just that education piece that people are comfortable going in and editing their website because if they're comfortable with their site and they were, wow, I can actually make changes and see those on the front and not write code. That's going to blow their mind the first time they do it. I'm sure you've seen it. And that's probably the fuel that keeps you going too is that excitement you see in some of your clients as it clicks.
Bob: And I've noticed that a lot of people who build sites have been talking about in this new year, they're more focused on documentation. The need to provide more learning experiences on the client side. And that's whether they're doing products or websites or whatever. So I think it's starting to drill into more and more people just how critical that piece is and if someone uses a product, they probably prefer to learn how to use this extension on their site versus Bob talking about it on his site. They prefer it coming from the original source.
Mary: That is interesting. I'm going to also ask them that you're talking about here right now in Nigeria.
Bob: So I think that's a big one. So let me just throw one thing out here. I don't know if Brad has anything else, but I was just thinking to close this out, since you are actually the official first episode of the new year, which is kind of cool because we're in a new year.
If somebody sat down with you after this show and they said, you know I want to start building WooCommerce sites. I know WordPress, but I want to start building WooCommerce sites, from your experience, what would be your first piece of advice for them?
Mary: I think the first thing I would ask them, which is a first thing I ask all my clients who told me they want a website is, are you willing to set aside some time to learn how your WooCommerce shop is going to run? If your answer is yes, then we can get started talking about any other thing. But that's the first thing for me. Are you willing to put in the time to learn how your shop works? Because it's your product at the end of the day, your service. You'd know more about the product or service that whoever is going to build a shop for you. If the person who is building the shop puts in the wrong product description, it's your job to fix it, which means you have to put in a time to make it what you want. So that's the first thing I would ask.
Are you willing to put in the time? If you're willing to put in the time? Well then yes, why not? By all means let's get started. But one thing I also love is... So I don't always tell clients that, let me build this for you, no, no, no, no. I always ask them, would you like to build this by yourself? I have my reasons. Because most of my friends will say, you just throw the market out there or I recommend some other person. And I will tell them that, it takes a lot to teach somebody how to do something, even when you're building the site for them. I mean, if the person's answer was no, I'm not willing to put in the time. I'm definitely not going to recommend myself to build a site for them, no. We can't be on the same page.
So if that answer is yes. Do you want to do it yourself or do you want somebody to build it for you? And then are you willing to invest? You need equipment. You need a good smartphone. If you have to buy a product box, you need it. You can't afford to be paying all the time for a photograph, also for taking product photos. I mean, I'm speaking here now because I'm thinking small business owners majorly, because for me anything I do, I mostly like to make an impact.
So, if the person who is selling physically in a small shop by the side of the road is able to leverage that kind of technology to sell that. It makes me happy. But of course, if it's somebody with a big outfit, then I go pay somebody to do it for you. But if it's a small business owner, I'm more than happy and willing to guide them and help them from the beginning to the completion. So long as they're also willing to put in the time.
Mary: But you have to be willing to put in the time. I think that's the most important thing for me because the products are trends and I presume you're not just sending one thing all the time, you want to have more products to your line or have more services. You should be able to do that without having to reach out to a developer. That's prospecting. That's the way I see it.
Bob: Yes, exactly. Brad anything else you want to touch on?
Brad: No, that was great. I completely agree with what you said. I think putting the time is, especially as a small business owner. And honestly, I think most of all business owners are willing to do that because if you run a business, I would hope that you're willing to roll up your sleeves and get a little dirty, put in some sweat equity. And I'm guessing most small business owners have already done that. So I think that's great advice.
Bob: Well, Mary, this has been great.
Brad: It's been fun.
Bob: It's always great to hear from someone way across the pond, as they would say. And what's going on in the Woo world over in Nigeria.
Where is the best place for people to connect with you?
Mary: That would be on Twitter, but right now I'm on break, that would be on Twitter, Mary Job. I usually take a four months break at the end of the year, so I'm not back yet, but my website is always up, maryjob.com. You can send me an email at anytime. My mailbox and me, we have a relationship that I don't... I'm trying to not get addicted to my mailbox but I'm not sure if that's going to work.
Bob: Alrighty. Well, let me just thank our sponsors one more time before we wrap this up. There's PayPal. You may have installed the PayPal extension for over the holidays on your clients site, but if you haven't, you want to check that out. And then of course, WooCommerce 4.9. It's coming out shortly. Lastly, I would love for you to go over and leave a review on the podcast on Apple podcasts. Well, I think that does it Brad, like I said, it was great to have you back. I've I missed your smiling face even though people can't see it.
Brad: Glad to be back. Let's have a good healthy, successful year this year. All three of us. How about that?
Bob: Sounds like a plan to me. And Mary, thank you very much for coming on the show.
Brad: Thank you Mary, this is great.
Mary: Thank you Bob. Thank you Brad. I really appreciate having me on this show.
Brad: Hopefully someday we'll get to meet in person when we're all out to travel again.
Bob: And yeah, that's another wrap. Thank you everyone and continue to Do the Woo in the New Year.
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