Building the New Do the Woo Site

Do the Woo Podcast Guest Christina Workman Episode 164

Do the Woo - A WooCommerce Podcast
Do the Woo - A WooCommerce Podcast
Building the New Do the Woo Site
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There are few opportunities to hear a discussion between a WordPress agency and a client. Well, that’s what you are getting this time around.

With the rebrand and rebuild of Do the Woo, I took the opportunity to invite Christina Workman, one of the projects leads, from Maintainn a SMB division of WebDevStudios. If you want to hear about the site build process from both sides, this one is for you.

Connect with Christina

  • @AmethystAnswers
  • WebDevStudios.com
  • maintainn.com

Highlights of the Chat with Christina Workman

  • The backstory [01:20]
  • Hiring an agency, a seamless, guided process [04:35]
  • Letting go of control [07:26]
  • Getting stuck with what “you” like [09:02]
  • It’s all about trust [09:35]
  • Turning bits of information into full-fledged ideas [12:45]
  • Where the boss fits into the process [15:25]
  • Success through team efforts [17:02]
  • The different routes of hiring someone [18:37]
  • The final proofing process [21:45]
  • Building a site and knowing you are the audience [28:15]
  • A team that takes the initiative [32:10]
  • Understanding the real power of WordPress when it’s in the hands of experts [36:55]

Other links mentioned in the show

Atarim

Thanks to Our Pod Friends

Brad: Welcome back to another exciting episode of Do the Woo, episode number 164. And today we have a pretty fun and special episode, don't we, Bob? We have some big stuff to talk about.

Bob: Yeah, we do. It's been an interesting and fun three months for me. And I can't believe, sometimes it seems like this day would never come, but then it's like, wow, it's finally here and it happened. And I thought, what better way to do this. For anybody listening, if you haven't been on the site, we have officially launched the new redesign and the rebrand. You don't have many opportunities, I think, to have one of the key players that was working on your site to come on your podcast. And first of all, she's very brave to have done that. Christina Workman, how are you doing?

Christina: I'm doing very well. Thanks Bob. And it is an honor to be here.

Brad: It's great to meet you, Christina.

Christina: Yeah, Brad. Go figure.

Brad: So if you're not familiar, Christina works at WebDevStudios with myself, and I'm her brother, so we do know each other. We work together every day.

The backstory [01:20]

Bob: Well, I want to give everybody a little backstory here and then I want to get into the conversation with Christina, just to... lot of the stuff was going on because this was a first experience for me. I think my first site in HTML was in the late '90s or something like that, and I won't even go there with the Flash and the weird things that were going on at that point in time, but I have never hired somebody to do a site for myself. So seeing that I've been in business for quite a long time, when it came to the point that I had the luxury of hiring an agency to do the new redesign, I was kind of stuck first, because I thought, first of all, I know a billion people in this space, so where do I start?

And of course, WebDevStudios came to mind as one of the top ones because there were several reasons. I mean the reputation, the they have a stellar reputation online. I know Brad has been with Do the Woo since episode five, and there were just a lot of things in place. So as I looked around-

Brad: Go on, Bob, go on. This is my favorite part. Right? Why? What?

Bob: Yeah. Yeah. This is his favorite part. And he's such a good looking guy, that's the other thing. I mean, hey, yeah.

Brad: There we go. All right.

Christina: Great boss, too.

Bob: Great boss. Yeah. Good. Good call there. Yeah.

Brad: This is my favorite episode we've ever done.

Bob: But seriously it was weird because I didn't know what to expect. And I actually had reached out to Brad even I think before this and said, "Brad, I might talk to you about this because I'm going to have to hire somebody. And I don't know what to look for, who to ask." And of course he made that quite easy at a point where I approached him. And I think one of the biggest things, we'll get into this conversation more because I don't want to just talk on and on about this, but I had this in my mind that I've been building my sites, it's easy, WordPress, if you're out there. I'm not a developer. I grab a theme, I do whatever settings it has, I can put a side in. I always seem to use black and white and grays. BobWP was a brand. And I thought I got to build something for the Do the Woo community, this is no longer BobWP, and it's got to be something special and I can't do it.

And with a background in design, I had no qualms about letting go of the control. I needed advice. I needed guidance. And it wasn't something that I knew in myself that it wouldn't be like, okay, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Why don't you do this? This is what I've always done. I had to sit back, and it was really easy for me to do. And maybe it's at this stage and with this site to just say help me, I have no idea what I want. I have this community.

Hiring an agency, a seamless, guided process [04:35]

The only other advantage of hiring any agency really was I thought I am asking them to do a site that would typically appeal to the people that would be working on the site. Builders. So they can kind of keep that in mind when they're doing it. So with that said, Christina. You survived it, which is great. It's out there. It's in the wild. We've gotten a lot of great feedback. I don't even know where to begin with this. The process, I find at WebDev was, I guess, the fact that, again, I've always done my own stuff, I've always been by myself, so streamlined and coordinated.

Christina: Well, that's great to hear. That's what we aim for.

Bob: And everything was just like, I felt like nothing was ever out of control. It was like... And I'm not saying this just because Brad's here. Well, I'm saying that because Brad's here, but I'm not saying it literally because Brad is here, I'm saying it because it was an experience that was like, wow, I never, there was never a... Everything just fell into place and moved along. And I was, even if I threw a little hiccup in things, Alex, the project manager would come in and say, "Well, this isn't in the scope" or... I mean, it was such a guided effort that kept me on track. Now, is that from your end, does that benefit you, what you do? And secondly, do you find that most customers, or clients I should say, really adhere to that? I mean, they get it and they follow your lead or what you put in place. Or is it always constantly people going off on tangents?

Christina: Well, I mean, no two clients are the same, right? But we do have our processes, they're there to make things easier both for us and for you. So everybody knows what's going on at the same time, we know where we're at, we know where we're going. And hopefully, like you said, we survive the three months or two months or whatever it is, and we get to the final product and everybody's happy. That's what we all want. And yeah, it's been a great three months. And I would not say... I would not use the word survive to describe my experience. You've been a pleasure to work with, and this has been a really fun site to work on. And I got to say props to Jennifer for working on the branding aspect of it that set me up to really make the site as great as it is.

Letting go of control [07:26]

Brad: Yeah. And Bob, I mean, I think kind of as you described it, and the idea of letting go of control, that is a very common situation we've run into, right? Where you know your audience, your product or your content very well, right? Just like our clients that come to us. They know their business very well. But what we really try to get across is we're partners. They come to us because we're experts in the field and we want to sit down at the table with them and figure out the best solution to hit and exceed their goals. And many times that does require, obviously people to put a lot of trust and faith in us, but also to let go a little bit, because the more challenging projects are the ones where they don't let go and they don't listen to expert advice.

And they say, "Great. I know that green text on a red background is terrible to read and completely unaccessible, but that's what we want." Like those are the projects that are very difficult, and I understand it's a hard thing to do to say, "Hey, look, you've got to trust us. You've got to let go because it's your potential livelihood," for a lot of people, including you, Bob, so. But that's why people come to us and other agencies like ours is because we are the experts. We understand how of the web works. We understand how users will most likely work with your site and your content. And we can bring that those valuable ideas and contributions to the project. So it is a very collaborative approach and the best projects are the ones that allow us to flex our expertise, but also do want to collaborate with us like you did, Bob.

Bob: Right.

Getting stuck with what “you” like [09:02]

Christina: Yeah. And that's a good point. Sometimes clients can get stuck in, this is what I like. And as much as they know their business and their customers or clients, they have to remember sometimes that what they like isn't what's going to suit those customers or clients the best way online. And so that's where we really hope that they rely on our guidance and our knowledge and experience to find a bridge between the two. Right? Still, we want it to be something that you like. We don't want to give you something that you absolutely hate and tell you, "But we promise your clients will love it."

It’s all about trust [09:35]

We want it to be both. But there needs to be that trust and that collaboration.

Bob: Exactly. And I'd like to go back a little bit, what Jennifer had done on the branding, because she did, I'm glad you mentioned Jennifer because she did an amazing job and that's how we started out the whole project. But it's also leading up to a question for you, Christina, is that with Jennifer, I mean, I remember previously, even a couple months before I was going to actually, I was in the spot to hire somebody, I tried to redo my logo. And it was, oh man, it was like, I've lost it. I used to do this for clients way back, but it's obviously has since then dried up inside my creative brain because I just kept looking at these ideas I came up with.

So when I talked to Jennifer the first time it was an open book for me. I basically had no idea what I wanted, which is maybe, I don't know if that's good or bad, because it was like colors, anything, I said, "You come up with some ideas. You come up with some color palettes. I need something here." Because, there was a point where even my wife was, Judy was looking at the site and she was saying, "Oh, I'm still getting used the bright colors," because she's used to Bob and his, well, kind of bland colors, I guess you could say, but it grew on her real quick. And the more it was like, and then when finally the site was out, because she wasn't... I mean, I'd share stuff with her, she was like, "Whoa, this is so cool."

But what I want to lead in with that to you is when I came to the development side of things, I remember one specific time, and I'd love to have how you feel about this when a client says something like this, we talked a bit and I was kind of adhering to the fact that, hey, you're my audience so I want you to ring your expertise, just as Brad was saying. I'm trusting you. I'm here, I'm paying you because that's what you do and this is what you know. And you shared three templates with me for the homepage, just as a starting point. And I looked at those things over and over and I thought, man, what am I looking at here?

And I'll be honest. I would just... And I remember I came back to you and said, "You tell me which is the best. You tell me, which do you think is the best?" And that was when I realized, I mean, I'd understood that point at the logo because I'd given Jennifer a lot of leeway, but I knew that it was like, okay, I'm trusting for feedback on that, and recommendations. So how do you feel when a customer, you think you're expecting this, ooh, I like this, but I don't like this part, if somebody just throws back at you?

Christina: Yeah, sure.

Bob: I'm trusting your judgment.

Turning bits of information into full-fledged ideas [12:45]

Christina: Usually I have an opinion already. So I may send you three, but I already have thoughts on what I'm sending. And I think you're not giving yourself enough credit for some of the input that you actually given us. As much as you have been open, I know like even with the logo, you still gave us some ideas and some reference points that we could draw on. So you were open to whatever colors, but you had sort of an idea of a feeling sort of wanted to evoke, right?

And so that actually is very helpful as opposed to just, I want to logo and here you go, and I'm not telling you anything about it. Right? So you gave us lots of information. And if I remember correctly, with the templates, you did the same thing. You couldn't make up a decision between which one you wanted to go with, but you were able to tell me what you liked about the different ones. And so from that, I was able to pick one that I thought would be a good foundation, but know what other things to keep in mind to try to inject into it style-wise.

Brad: Yeah. Just to expand on that. I think, like you said, Bob, I think a lot of people come into the conversation thinking they have to have the right answer or have to have the full answer. But to Christina's point, like those little bits of information, we like to ask, what websites do you like? What websites do you don't like? But we also like to ask like, what features stand out about the sites you like or what features really stand out about the sites you don't like? Because that's really telling, and it can start to point us in a certain direction to say, oh, Bob really doesn't like these type of layouts or thinks this particular feature is just overwhelming and doesn't make sense. That's very valuable information for us to know. So a lot of it's just having conversations and trying to extract out as much as we can and then use that in a thoughtful way in our recommendations.

Christina: Yeah. And to that point, knowing what you don't like is just as important as knowing what you do like.

Brad: Maybe even more so. I think a of people are shocked when we ask them, "What sites do you hate?" or, "What features do you not like?" or, "Is there something we just absolutely need to stay away from?" But it's very telling when we get those answers.

Bob: So Brad, I'm just curious, because I have not asked you this and I know Christina is our guest here, but I do want to ask you one question. Were you watching anything during this process, or were you pretty much hands off or? I mean, I know that you're the big guy, you're not going to be in there doing stuff.

Brad: I'm the big guy, Bob.

Bob: But yeah, you're the big guy. You're the big, good looking guy. So you're just the face of the place, so.

Brad: Yeah.

Where the boss fits into the process [15:25]

Bob: But seriously, I mean, did you ever, during the process, check it out, kind of check in or was it your trust, obviously with your team and you don't feel like you have to overlook things. But I was wondering if you were curious about the project along the way?

Brad: Yeah, definitely, while I wasn't at the ground level, like Christina was, I definitely was keeping tabs at a high level. And big milestones, I was definitely reviewing things like the logo when it came through and to see the different options and what direction you were leaning. I didn't want to influence in any way, because ultimately this is your project. And yes, I'm a co-host on the podcast, but ultimately this is your project and your site and your community. So, I gave some of my thoughts behind the scenes, but by and large I pretty much stayed away from it other than just kind of keeping tabs that things were going okay.

I think back to your earlier point of kind of knowing, really being able to step back and understand your role, I do the same at this company, right? My role isn't to be at the ground level. My role is to get out of the way and let the amazing people at WebDev do what they do, like Christina and others. So it's getting the right people in the right room to make magic happen, right? That's really my role. So I know I've become, I think, I think I'm self-aware enough that I know when I need to get out of the way. I think. I may not all be fully there, but I'm better at it than I used to be. Right? And so I definitely keep tabs, but certainly I wasn't really influencing anything. And I like seeing the progress. It was fun to watch the team and you work so closely together.

Success through team efforts [17:02]

Christina: And that's one of the things I think that maybe helps, too, is that it's never just... you weren't just relying on me by myself to get something done, right? It was a team effort. We check in with each other, we help each other. So when Jennifer was working on the logos and the branding and that we would have meetings as well and talk about, and I would give input. And if she got stuck on something, I might help and vice versa. When I was building out the site, I would hit her up and say, "Hey, I know this piece needs something right here, but I just put my finger on it," and she would have some brilliant idea that would be either the exact right thing that we needed, or that would be the stepping stone to get us to that point where we need it.

And Alex as well, we would all talk about different things as we needed to and rely on each other and work with each other. So it was, I mean, it was truly a group effort. And that's one of the great things, too, is that we just, we help each other out and we work well together as a team.

Bob: I often thought of that during the process, because I know I communicated it in the beginning a lot with Jennifer and then with you of course through the development. But I always thought of all the different little hands and arms that are getting into this and providing feedback. And I mean, it was one of those things almost going back again to the streamlining of the project from my perspective where I don't obviously know everything that's going on behind the scenes and all that little incremental parts going on.

The different routes of hiring someone [18:37]

Brad: Yeah, I mean, that's again, like when you're evaluating a project like this, there're different routes you can go, right? You could hire a company like ours that is a team of professionals, that each person brings different value to that team and the project. You could also go the freelancer route where you hire a very talented freelancer, then you're working more one on one. Honestly, there's going to be pros and cons with both approach. I think the pros really outweigh the cons from the team approach just because it is that collaborative team effort. You're getting more thought leadership and expertise at that table with a group. But generally the costs are going to be a little bit higher, right? Less risky, too, when you're working with a team. If one person's out sick, something personal comes up, whatever, there's a team. Right? So the ball's going to keep moving.

You work with a freelancer, and this is a story I've heard more times than I want to admit, but something comes up mid project and all of a sudden they disappear and now you're stuck with a half finished project because you had all of your eggs and one basket. Again, I don't think a freelancer is always a bad idea, but I think you need to weigh those pros and cons. Right? And there's a lot of them on both sides, but it's a factor when you get into a project, you need to be thinking about that. What type of group or individual do you want to work with?

Bob: Yeah. And I have that personal line to the head of the company, so I new, no matter what, and I knew where I was going to... Yeah, yeah. It was like, it's going to happen. But actually I think a couple times I might have said to Brad, "Oh cool. I got the logo done." We didn't really talk a lot about it during that. And that is, again, one of the reasons I came to you is because I could have somebody do the logo there and do do that branding part and do the site because I really didn't want those separate because I wanted that easy transition.

BobWP: Hey BobWP here and I’d like to take a moment to thank to of our Pod Friends for their support of Do the Woo.

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And now let’s head back to the show.

The final proofing process [21:45]

Bob: I wanted to talk about the final stages where you're proofing and everything. And my good friend Vito over at Atarim, I believe that's how you pronounce it. Vito, if you're listening, I'm sure he will be listening, but if I've just butchered it, you can correct me. That's A-T-A-R-I-M, this is your client feedback process. I'll just put in a a little bit of background. I remember checking it out when it was WP Feedback, Vito had me go in and play around with it and I thought, wow, this is cool. Of course, I was out of design or anything at that time. And I always said, well, this would be pretty slick to have with a client. And that's all. That's pretty much where it began and where it ended for me. I'd never experienced as a user or actually using it from that perspective, before I get into even how I felt about it or how it worked for me. What has that brought to the table for you, Christina, as far as the process and that latter part of the process?

Christina: Yeah. It really helps pinpoint where you might be talking about on a site. So once the site is essentially built and ready to go, of course we want you to be able to look at it, make sure it's doing what you want and that we didn't miss anything. Right? So when you're going through there and looking at it, if you have to write down in a note somewhere and say, on this page three quarters of the way down, two sentences into this paragraph, can you put a period here, that is really cumbersome.

And so the great thing with the Atarim tool, and again, sorry, Vito, I'm probably butchering it as well, is that you can click on the page exactly where you want us to make an edit, make a change, fix something, whatever the case may be. And in there type a quick note that you can just say, put a period here, and it makes sense. And then we can talk about it. If it's something more complicated, we have the ability to talk back and forth about it. There's a couple of different options. One of the things I really like is that it automatically grabs what screen resolution you're using and what browser you're using. So if you're seeing something and we are not seeing it, we can check and troubleshoot in the proper browser, which is really helpful. So yeah, it provides us a lot more pinpointed and targeted feedback.

Bob: Right. Brad, you obviously you decided to start using it at some point, was it an easy sell for you when the product, I mean, when you actually did start using it?

Brad: Yes. Short answer. So we started using it back when it was WP Feedback, and then they rebranded last year, I don't remember the exact timing that they rebranded, but to Atarim. There are other tools out there that do this just in general, not WordPress specific, but one, we like to support WordPress companies and two, this is laser focused on WordPress, right? Which is another bonus. It's kind of like using managed WordPress hosting, right? It's just going to work better for WordPress.

So yeah, I mean, anytime you get that feedback, like Christina said, real time, very pinpointed, exactly what you want, you've just saved how much back and forth. It's like scheduling phone calls and using something like Calendly versus listing out five different times you're available next week and hoping one of them works. And if they're not, then there's just back and forth. It just automates what... It just streamlines the process, I guess. Makes it very easy on the user, the client, you Bob, you can go on there, you're on the website, you just click, type a comment, click, type a comment. Very easy for the team to go through and say, "Hey, Bob added five things on this page. Let's go through and see what we got and just work through those changes, add comments back," all in real time.

So yeah, I mean, if you're doing any type of site development where the client is going to be having some type of QA, which is probably every site being developed out there, a tool like Atarim is ultimately just going to save you and your client so much time, which ultimately ends up saving money. Right? So it just makes the process smoother and easier.

Bob: Yeah. For me as a user, even though, I mean, I get it, I'm thinking back when I was doing design and somebody sent me a screenshot, and I have a big red... used some red tool to draw a circle around that period that Christina was talking about that couldn't find or whatever. Once I started using it, it came all back to me. Okay, I remember this tool. But now using it, it's like, I'm not looking at, oh, this is great, all these features, this is like, I'm just being able to do this quick and easy and that, like you said, that back and forth.

It was kind of funny though, I got to a point where I don't feel like I had to spend a lot of time on any of those. I would do something, Christine would fix it, I'd say cool. I kept saying, "Great. Cool." And then I started thinking, well, I'm seeing all these kind of weird... so I started closing them myself.

Christina: Yeah.

Bob: And Christina said, "Oh, I see you're..." and I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't have done that," because I just felt natural. It's like, okay, I'm done. Yeah. Bye. Let's get rid of this one. And so, I kind of took that on, which may have been good or bad, but...

Christina: It was fine. Not everybody is as comfortable going in and closing them and switching priorities or statuses, so we try to take care of that for most people., But yeah, when you're comfortable and you knew what you were doing and they were usually the smaller fixes that it didn't need a whole lot of back and forth, it just made sense then. It was totally fine that you were clicking.

Brad: You're a power user, Bob.

Bob: Yeah. It felt really cool. It was like, wow, this is great. I'm done with this. Okay. You did it. Thank you. Bye.

Brad: You're like, wow, Bob loaded 20 QA tasks and Bob completed 19 of those tasks. Thanks.

Christina: Yeah.

Brad: Thanks Bob. You're a great client.

Christina: Yeah. If you start doing the work for us, too, that would be great.

Building a site and knowing you are the audience [28:15]

Bob: I don't know if I really touch on this, I think I'm mentioned it, was there anywhere along the line as you're building out this site that you kind of wore that hat that maybe you're not going to specialize in WooCommerce or anything, but that this was a site for developers and stuff? And did any of that play into any of your decisions or was it just kind of a natural, okay, I know the direction of this, naturally just to make this right for the user and it didn't really matter that I have the brain of a developer or a designer?

Christina: Yeah. I don't know that it mattered too much. Obviously being in that position, it meant that my thoughts maybe did count a little bit more, not obviously that they don't count, but I knew because I was also the target audience that I was speaking from a place of experience, but all also from a place of being that target. Right? But for the most part, this project, it really went, I think really smoothly. I think we had the brand set up and we started with the homepage and we got a few things established, and then it's just a matter of consistency. Right? We always talk about consistency when we're building websites. You want certain things in certain places, people are used to contact buttons and that kind of thing in certain ways.

But so to build that consistency of appearance and we've built something that look like this, so when we go to this page, let's not build something that looks totally different. It should resonate at least somehow with something else we've already done. So everywhere you go on the site, there's nothing that's just brand new and just doesn't fit. Right? It's all consistent. And the other thing that I really tried to keep in mind was the functionality, because I know that you've got the podcast and you've got the news and the profiles and the friends, and there were all of these different pieces. And we wanted to make sure that we were giving you the best and easiest and most future-proof way of having those things function. And if there was anything that we could do to automate something that you were doing manually, we wanted to do that as well.

Brad: Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. It's a great question, because it's not often we work on a site geared towards developers. I think we have a little bit in the past with some of the Microsoft work we've done, but that's not typical. Right? It is interesting, like Christina said, she's your audience. The team is your audience that was building the site. But it also goes back to just understanding content and goals of that content, right? And be able to, like Christina said, you have a couple different spots of content. You have the news, you have the podcast, you have the profiles, they have friends. So it's how do we lay that out so it makes sense? It's easy to navigate. It's not like 50 different categories of content in your menu and nobody really knows what's what or why things are different.

It's that organization of it, too, and just understanding the goals of what you're trying to do, which is allow people to find different bits of content. Those are where the similarities line up with anybody we're building a site for, right, is let's talk about your content and what the goals are and what you're trying to get people to do. And then we can start kind of homing in on that. Like you have calls to action to, listen to the podcast, or to become a friend, or check out the show notes and on the blog. So there's just, there is a lot of overlap, even though it was developer focused, right? Because it is a content site, it's a media site.

A team that takes the initiative [32:10]

Bob: Yeah. And I could speak to anybody that's going to go through a project like this is what I've found out is, through the experience, giving you, and you kind of went back to it with some of the other, we talked about the layouts and stuff, is giving you enough information of what I want to do, but not giving you too much information. And what I mean by that is, there was a lot of things that you knew were the right things to do and they might be little touches, hey, we'll make this a button, we'll make this call to action. But then there were bigger things around the sponsorships, the friends profiles, these other pieces I have that I had this conceptual idea, and this is kind of what I do.

And to have a company or an agency, or whoever's working on your site to take the initiative, like you said, to go beyond, and this is what you've done a lot of times is, she would come back, Christine would say, "Okay, well, we've done this part and now you can automatically load this in here and do..." something. And I'm just like, I didn't want to swear on here, but it's like, whoa! It was like, wow, you just saved me a ton of time.

This was nothing we really talked about, but you somehow through metamorphosis understood that I can make it easier by doing this. So there was a lot of things that fell into that I had... maybe I could sit down and think about and say, oh, in my perfect world, I wish it would do this and this and this, but giving you that general idea and these are the functionalities, the extra step that Christina would always take and come back with some functionality that was almost an extension of what I wanted that I hadn't expected and was a very cool surprise. It was like, wow, you mean, I can do this now? I was cutting and pasting all this time and now I can do this.

Brad: You need that mind blown gif, right?

Bob: Yeah, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And again, you helped with that in, first of all, how the site... all the content you had on the site. Right? So I was able to look and go, okay, this is all of the things that we need, and so then I could visualize what's the best way to make all of these happen, again, and make it easy. But then if there was something new that you wanted or just something that was a bit different, you would tell me what you wanted. And sometimes it wouldn't be exactly, I would have a different idea, but because you told me what you wanted and why you wanted it, so sort of like what the end goal was, that allowed me to make sure that we were using hopefully the best solution.

And you might not, because again, we have the expertise and the knowledge, you may not know all of the options that are out there for you, but if you tell me what you're trying to achieve, then I can go through my catalog of options and say, oh, this is the one that I think would actually do all of these things that you want to do. We could do it this way, but there might be this, this and this. And so usually, when you would tell me what you were trying to do and I would give you a different option and you would say, "Yeah, that's great," because you had told me the end goal.

Bob: Yeah. But it's an art of extraction that Christina has, and I'm sure a lot of your team members do, but it really impressed me because it was like, I hadn't specifically thought of that particular piece and suddenly it's doing this little magic thing and beyond that is doing it at that point, I don't really care, it's doing it now and it's wonderful. So let's move on, type of thing.

Tran

Understanding the real power of WordPress when it’s in the hands of experts [36:55]

Bob: It's interesting because as many times as I built my own site and after this process it's like, I never want to go back to doing that again. I've learned what WordPress can do even more, so going through this process and anything I've done, just talking about plugins, talking to people about plugins and stuff. And just to give everybody example, we're using the Astra theme and Beaver Builder. And I used Beaver Builder years ago. And I was telling Christine before the show that amazingly I'm going in there and it's like, oh yeah, I remember this now. Yeah. This is how I do it. It's a different workflow for me in some instances, but it's like, cool, okay, yeah. It is really coming back, a lot of it, which I'm sure they've done a lot of improvements over the years, but the same time the basics are there and it's been pretty cool just getting in there and, oh, I can discover this, I can figure out this. Hopefully I've...

Bob: I've had a couple weird things go on and I've talked to Christine about it. And sometimes I think it's just me, it's like, wow, I've never seen that happen or something or, that sounds really strange. And yeah, yeah, well, I'm always going to find the strange things. But anyway, it's been an amazing three months, and two months with you, Christina. And the feedback has been incredible, like I said, even somebody that I know that is heavy into UI commented back to me on Twitter and said, "Fantastic site. Looks wonderful." And so that was, I mean, there's different people, I know kind of what their expertise is or what they're looking at when they look at it, and I'm getting all these different kudos in different pieces of the site and how it functions, so. So it's been really cool. Yeah. Well, we could talk forever, and I'm sure you have other sites to do old and you have all those tickets that I've been putting into Christina. She's got a bunch of Bob tickets still here going on, but yeah, it's been-

Christina: Bob tickets are my favorite part of the day, I have to say.

Bob: Well, if I can bring a little pleasure to your life, that's, I guess that's all that matters, so. Christina, where can people connect with you? Where's a good place for them to connect?

Christina: The best place is on Twitter. It's AmethystAnswers. And that's A-M-E-T-H-Y-S-T A-N-S-W-E-R-S. That's usually the best place to find me.

Bob: Cool. Well, I'm just going to do one more shout out to both the two of you. This has been incredible. I didn't bring you on to give you constant kudos, but I know Brad lives for those things.

Christina: I like it.

Bob: Yep. But I've had an incredible experience. It's been great. I'm so happy with the end product and yeah, you made it a real... It's been a learning experience and I've enjoyed it along the way, too. So thanks to you both for doing that. And Brad, so why don't you go ahead and give us one little last closeout and we will call the wrap.

Brad: Absolutely. Well, thank you, Bob, for putting your trust in us. And if anyone's interested, they can check out maintainn.com with two Ns, or webdevstudios.com. We're happy to talk to them about their projects, how we can help, but for Bob and myself, this is another great episode of Do the Woo, number 164. Hope you enjoyed it. We'll catch on the next one.

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